Blizzard changes arguments wrt game balance questions, when it comes to locks

[Son Goku]

You know? I don't normally cry foul, or get in these nerf type discussions; but in this case I just have to. Not just because some of the stuff they nerfed on hunters and other classes gave less of an advantage then locks get with chain fear (or chain fear combined with DoTing); but because of the apperent change of argument only after other classes have stood before the nerf axe aldready. Taken from a "blue" post made by Blizzard themself, when the argument of locks in 2v2 arenas came up:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/

2vs2 is unfair
There already was a similar post a few days ago, but this one definitely confirms that they don't really plan to do anything to balance 2vs2 arenas.

Quote from: Tharfor (Source)

I'm not saying you're wrong. There are a number of changes, adjustments, and tweaks that could be made to make warlocks less powerful in smaller scale PvP ... but by your logic alone we can say that the strength of warlocks is diminished as the scale of the PvP increases.

I'm not saying it's right that warlocks should be so powerful as a solo class simply because the balance is aimed somewhere else, but that's the way it is and it has been said that little to no balancing will be done for 1vs1 or 2vs2 scenarios. It was even announced recently that there was almost not going to be a 2vs2 arena due to balance concerns.

The bottom line is that warlocks are a powerful solo class - but I don't remember anyone claiming that they would be anything else and it is only natural that some of that powerful solo ability would transfer across to solo PvP, even if it was originally intended to be a PvE strength.

Lets be honest here, every argument for nerfing of hunter's pets (attack speed normalization of every family of pet, including rare spawns like broaken tooth) around the slowest raptor 2.0 attack speed was a 1v1 scenario, when the pet was used to interupt spell casting. However, putting each one of those nefs in place, without, and I will selectively modify the specified class in this dev's post just to illustrate the point

I'm not saying it's right that hunters should be so powerful as a solo class simply because the balance is aimed somewhere else, but that's the way it is and it has been said that little to no balancing will be done for 1vs1 or 2vs2 scenarios. It was even announced recently that there was almost not going to be a 2vs2 arena due to balance concerns.

Pets only attacked one target at a time, leaving them much less useful in a gank situation, where 8 players gank the hunter forcing them into melee.

Why do I bring this up? Because of the seeming change in argument on when and where to apply the concept of game balance. Class after class has fallen to the nerf axe, warriors and druids also, but now when it comes to locks, this is the argument that is given. Why? Because they favor locks above all other classes? Because they chose to use the argument of game balance to make every other class less powerful, but conveniently change the argument when it comes to this one class?

If this is their standing, then every single nerf they made to any class in the past, should be reviewed against this principle of

I'm not saying it's right that insert x class beyond just locks should be so powerful as a solo class simply because the balance is aimed somewhere else, but that's the way it is and it has been said that little to no balancing will be done for 1vs1 or 2vs2 scenarios. It was even announced recently that there was almost not going to be a 2vs2 arena due to balance concerns.

and former nerfs counter adjusted to make them retroactively fall in line with this rationale and argument, else locks should be held to the same argument, same standard, and same logic as any other class when game balance issues come up.

Besides lets face it, many things that got adjusted like pet attack speed only effected spell casting where something isn't an instant caste. However, chain fearing, combined with life taping and DoTing, effects things to a much greater extent. Even if spells are interupted, any instant caste or melee attack is still possible (whether ideal or not). When feared, one can't do anything at all[/b]. If these other things were an "unfair advantage", and same thing goes with applying diminishing returns to a skill that might shut out a whole school of magic (though leaving others open); then something that makes a character unable to do anything but run in fear, while continuing to have it's life drained, should definitely be counted as unfair.

In either case, when the question of game balance is applied, the standards should be consistent for all classes. The argument to aplly a balance or not, should be based upon a measure that is impartial to all. There should not be 2 seperate standards, one for x class, and y for every other class.

[OldOfEvil]

When feared, one can't do anything at all.


There are things that will break Fear.

Equipment

* Faction Insignia — With the exception of hunter, warrior, and shaman, all other classes can break Fear once using [Insignia of the Alliance] or [Insignia of the Horde].
* [Glimmering Mithril Insignia] — Blacksmith Trinket grants 30 seconds of fear immunity.
(greater list below)

Racial Traits or Class Abilities

* Forsaken — Forsaken has a racial trait Will of the Forsaken which breaks fear and grants 5 seconds of fear immunity.
* Hunter — Beast Mastery spec'd hunters may break fear with The Beast Within.
* Mage — Frost mages may use Ice Block to break fear once.
* Paladin — Paladins may use Divine Shield to break fear once.
* Priest — Draenei and dwarf priests can use Fear Ward, which absorbs one 'charge' of Fear.
* Shaman — Shamans may use Tremor Totem which can dispel fear or use Grounding Totem which can absorb fear.
* Warlock — Warlocks with Felhunter may use Devour Magic to dispel fear on themselves.
* Warrior — Warriors can break fear when in Berserker Stance with Berserker Rage and Recklessness. Fury Warrior can break fear with Death Wish in any stance.

Other Notes

* Paladins and Priests may dispelled fear on their team-mates.
* A high shadow resistance can also stop fear, or cause it to break early.
* Taking damage increases the chance fear would break early.
* As of 2.0, all crowd control effects (with the exception of Sap) have a chance each second to break earlier, and their duration is capped at 12 seconds. The chance increases with resistances and the level difference between the target and the caster.

Diminishing returns:

- Fear and seduce both count toward diminishing returns. We get a maximum of three total. In PvP, the maximum time fear/seduce can last is as follows:

First fear/seduce can last up to 12 seconds.
Second fear/seduce can last up to 6 seconds.
Third fear/seduce can last up to 3 seconds.

- After one seduce, this leaves a possible combination of two fears, one fear and a seduce or two more seduces; each can last for half of the time of the previous fear/seduce -- most of the time they don't.

- Fear is a 1.5 second cast without interrupts. With melee interrupts, it can take upwards of 5 seconds to get off, if we get it off at all. Seduce is a 1.5 second cast and is channelled. If the succubus gets hit, seduce stops.

- fear and seduce can both be resisted and this counts towards diminishing returns. Deathcoil can be resisted as well.

Fear is also the Most Nerfed single ability or spell:

Patch 1.2 12/18/04

Fear: Players now have an increasing chance to break free of the effect, such that it is unlikely the effect will last more than 15 seconds. (nerf)

Patch 1.31 3/22/05

Fear - Mana cost changed to a percentage of base, which results in an increase in cost. (nerf)

Patch 1.41 5/5/05

Seduction (Succubus) - Is now considered a Fear effect for purposes of diminishing returns. (nerf)

Patch 1.50 6/7/05

Warriors: Deathwish - Is now usable while under a Fear effect, and will also remove an existing Fear effect. (nerf)

Patch 1.70 9/22/05

Fear will now cause creatures to flee immediately, even if they are already moving. (PvE fix)

Fixed a bug where Fear and Curse of Recklessness, when used together, would prevent targets from casting spells. (PvE bug fix)

Druids: Druids should now be able to shapeshift back into caster form while Feared. (nerf)

Patch 1.80 10/10/05

Pets no longer break off attacks when their target is affected by Warlock Fear. (not much of a change really, but it can aid fear in breaking sooner).

Death Coil - Cooldown reduced, mana cost increased, and now causes a short Fear effect that is not diminished. (DC buff - 3 second horror effect, 2 minute cooldown)

Patch 1.10 3/28/06

Death Coil - The horrify component no longer affects undead creatures (they've seen it all before. (PvE nerf)

Patch 1.11 6/19/06

Fear: The calculations to determine if Fear effects should break due to receiving damage have been changed. The old calculation used the base damage of the ability. The new calculation uses the final amount of damage dealt, after all modifiers. In addition, the chance for a damage over time spell to break Fear is now significantly lower. Note that Fear continues to be roughly three times as likely to break on player targets as on non-player targets. (nerf)

Patch 1.12 8/22/06

Howl of Terror: This spell now uses the same resistance checks as the Warlock spell Fear. (nerf)

- In addition, fear and seduce both have "heartbeat" resists and can break at any time, whether damage has been applied or not. In PvP, all CC's have a maximum time of 12 seconds. (nerf)



Anti-Fear/Charm Trinket (Alliance)
Druid: http://www.thottbot.com/i18863
Rogue: http://www.thottbot.com/i18857
Warlock: http://www.thottbot.com/i18858
Mage: http://www.thottbot.com/i18859
Priest: http://www.thottbot.com/i18862
Paladin: http://www.thottbot.com/i18864

Anti-Fear/Charm Trinket, with resilence! (Alliance)
Druid: http://www.thottbot.com/i28235
Rogue: http://www.thottbot.com/i28234
Warlock: http://www.thottbot.com/i30348
Mage: http://www.thottbot.com/i28238
Priest: http://www.thottbot.com/i30349
Paladin: http://www.thottbot.com/i28236

Anti-Fear/Charm Trinket (Horde)
Druid: http://www.thottbot.com/i18853
Rogue: http://www.thottbot.com/i18849
Warlock: http://www.thottbot.com/i18852
Mage: http://www.thottbot.com/i18850
Priest: http://www.thottbot.com/i18851
Paladin: http://www.thottbot.com/i29592

Anti-Fear/Charm Trinket, with resilence! (Horde)
Druid: http://www.thottbot.com/i28241
Rogue: http://www.thottbot.com/i28240
Warlock: http://www.thottbot.com/i30343
Mage: http://www.thottbot.com/i28239
Priest: http://www.thottbot.com/i30346
Paladin: http://www.thottbot.com/i28242

Anti-Fear Class Spells!
Hunters:
The Beast Within: http://www.thottbot.com/s34471 (Requires 40 points in Beast Mastery. Must have a point in Bestial Wrath)
Bestial Wrath: http://www.thottbot.com/s19574 (Requires 30 points in Beast Mastery)

Warrior:
Death Wish: http://www.thottbot.com/s12328 (Requires 20 points in Fury)
Berserker Rage: http://www.thottbot.com/s18499
Recklessness: http://www.thottbot.com/s1719 (CANNOT BE USED IN ARENA)

Mage:
Ice Block: http://www.thottbot.com/s11958 (Requires 20 points in Frost)

Rogue:
Cloak of Shadows http://www.thottbot.com/s31224 (You cannot cancel fear but you can be Immune)

Racials!
Dwarf: (Priest)
Fear Ward: http://www.thottbot.com/s6346

Draenei: (Priest)
Fear Ward: http://www.thottbot.com/s6346

Undead:
Will of the Forsaken: http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=7744

Diminishing Returns!
Off of http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/basics/pvpcombat.html

Slowing Spells & Diminishing Returns
A handful of spells were added to the list of spells subject to diminishing returns in PvP. It is our goal to set as few spells as possible to be diminished. We've identified this short list of spells as having durations and cooldowns sufficient to almost permanently slow or immobilize targets but without adequate controls or other limiting factors. When a spell with diminishing returns is used against a target in PvP, the first effect has full duration. On the second use of the same category of spell (e.g. slowing), that spell's duration is reduced by 50%. On the third use, the duration is reduced by 75%. On the fourth attempt, the target becomes immune to the spell. Spells must be used on the same target within 15 seconds of the *end* of the duration in order to be diminished. In other words, if a target hasn't had a slowing spell active on them for more than 15 seconds, the next slowing spell will have full effect.

All Credit: Malaena from Farstriders & Quench from Shadowmoon Europe


You were saying?

[Bah!]

Lemme guess, you play a Warlock?


Sure, fear has been nerfed left and right since release...and it's still overpowered in Arenas and solo pvp. It's not just fear though, it's fear combined with the Warlocks other skills that just make them a cheap opponent in small encounters.

When the developers come out and say that you guys are OP in solo and small Arena content, there is no longer any defense...stop trying.

[Ninja Prime]

Lemme guess, you play a Warlock?


Sure, fear has been nerfed left and right since release...and it's still overpowered in Arenas and solo pvp. It's not just fear though, it's fear combined with the Warlocks other skills that just make them a cheap opponent in small encounters.

When the developers come out and say that you guys are OP in solo and small Arena content, there is no longer any defense...stop trying.

I fail to see how fear is more powerful than rogue stuns, warrior stuns, druid CC or paladin stuns.

[Son Goku]

It's the chaining of fear. I used to play a paly, and have a rogue. The paladin's stun is on a cooldown. They simply can't chain it due to a CD, a lock can.

As to what can break fear, a lot of those things are also on cooldowns.

- A shamy has a tremor totem, however kill totem and there's a CD to caste another.

- There is fear warde, but again there's a CD

- the insignia, has a cooldown

- enrage pet and beast within (BM hunter tree, 41 pt requirement), cooldown

- pet stun (intimidation), cooldown

Fear however can be chained. Anything on a cooldown, how would one chain it? Now if they'd do one of 2 changes, it could put some balance to this. Either make it like other forms of crowd control, so that fear effects are broaken, the second damage is taken (either by a DoT or straight attack), much the same way a freeze trap, sheep, shackle, or other forms of CC is broaken. Or make a feared target regen health like a sheep does :) Another quick and dirty end would be to put a universal cooldown on all a locks forms of fear (though again that might touch more on the PvE side of things, then some other things).

But what we have now is a dev, after years where characters have seen nerf after nerf apply to their class admit that it is over-powered but say

I'm not saying it's right that warlocks should be so powerful as a solo class simply because the balance is aimed somewhere else, but that's the way it is and it has been said that little to no balancing will be done for 1vs1 or 2vs2 scenarios.

Since when? And where was that argument over the years when any class has been up for a nerf prior to this post from one of the devs?

Personally, I think bliz should look at their stance in that there post, as

The bottom line is that warlocks are a powerful solo class - but I don't remember anyone claiming that they would be anything else...

could get any hunter for instance to re-visit past history and ask about what was claimed with them also. However, in all cases the decisions, to balance, or not to balance, and where, should be impartial and equitable for all classes.

[OldOfEvil]

Lemme guess, you play a Warlock?

I have a Warlock. I also have a Shadow Priest, 2 Rogues, a Warrior, a lowbie Paladin (horde) and at one time had a Mage who I deleted.


Sure, fear has been nerfed left and right since release...and it's still overpowered in Arenas and solo pvp. It's not just fear though, it's fear combined with the Warlocks other skills that just make them a cheap opponent in small encounters.

Thats your opinion and criticism, not fact.


When the developers come out and say that you guys are OP in solo and small Arena content, there is no longer any defense...stop trying.

The Devs say a lot of things..

[OldOfEvil]

Son Goku,

I don't (personally) think any objective Warlock player who's put in serious time has come to hate fear. Yeah, their are times when it doesn't break, and you can get off those solid 10 second fears while you pummel them with shadow bolts. On the reverse side, it gets trinketed or canceled by one of the many abilities most classes have to counter it.. or, fear breaks early and you get whooped.

Problem is, as annoying as fear is, what else do Warlocks have?

even our "snare" -Curse of exhaustion- is talent trainable only, slows by movement by 30%, and takes up a curse slow which could more often be better used for something like Curse of Tongues or Curse of Agony..

We've got Death Coil, which everyone hates and people make up ridiculously **** about, like that it crits and heals for thousands.

In the end, when I'm playing my other classes I don't find warlocks to be any worse than any other class. Fear is annoying since you run around like an idiot, but otherwise, get in their face and lock em down.


sorry for the rambling post. Its late..

[Sidric]

lol people are still complaining about fear? back when I was playing I thought they nerfed it enough to appease those crybabies. I guess not :p

[Medion]

I fail to see how fear is more powerful than rogue stuns, warrior stuns, druid CC or paladin stuns.

Wow. Paladins have one (1) stun on a 1-minute cooldown. That's it.

Sure, a Ret Paladin can spec for Repetence, another "stun" on a one minute cooldown, but that one breaks on damage.

[jeffmd]

if you are not as useless as a priest in 2vs2... quit your complaining and gtfo. ^^

[Son Goku]

Problem is, those trinkets are useless when people can just be feared again. It's the chaining that really needs addressing, as it leaves others with no chance in hell.

But what really gets me here, is all the other nerfs. Take all the pet x normalizations hunters have had to endure from one patch to the next, as people would mention pets no less then fear. In all those cases, the argument of game balance comes up, and end of it. But now, what do we get, after nerf after nerf has been placed on others? A dev saying essentially "yes it isn't fair, but no one claimed locks are anything but a powerful solo class..." (well no one ever claimed hunters should be anything other then a powerful solo class, with all the same ramifications that devs statements would place in the argument either), "so game balance doesn't apply here. It's the making of a double standard.

Either the whole argument of game balance applies to all equally and in same measure, or it's a wash and something else. Very much that dev comes off favoring locks, and not other classes who stood at the crossroads of the nerf discussions hitherto. Yes, I've had more then a few laughs discussing that dev's statement with some other hunters.

Either game balance applies to all, or it should be applied to none. The whole argument can not hold as reason and justification to alter the game, unless it is applied to all, in an objective and impartial manner. Locks needing fear? Hunters need to be at range, which means either a pet that can't simply be ignored or a melee class to partner with who forces them to focus elsewhere. Take that away, and their practically useless, which is why the "gank them" tactic is so successful in shutting them down. But unlike a lock, they can't just fear targets off repeatadly, to regain range. Anything short of applying the idea of game balance in an equitable fashion, which favors no class; makes Blizzard look biased in favor of some, over others.

Whatever is done with this class, or any other though, unless it is applied in equal measure, accross the board, and impartially, at that time it ceases to look like "balance" is the real goal in said nerfs, and it begins to look like something very different. It is that, and that in the whole tone and demeanor of what that dev says, and his reasoning behind decisions made that, that really bothers me. Something simply can not be balanced by definition, if the concept isn't applied to all, but is rather only selectively applied to some, at the exclusion of others.

[OldOfEvil]

lol people are still complaining about fear? back when I was playing I thought they nerfed it enough to appease those crybabies. I guess not :p

Yeah, they bitch about Fear, but Rogues Stun Locking your is just fine.

[Dvahlish]

Yeah, they bitch about Fear, but Rogues Stun Locking your is just fine.

You know...I used to hate fear aswell when coming up against a lock.
The same way I used to hate a pallys ability to bubble, heal and hearth.
How did I get over it?
Rolled a pally and a warlock....

Im fine with it now :)

[Ninja Prime]

Wow. Paladins have one (1) stun on a 1-minute cooldown. That's it.

Sure, a Ret Paladin can spec for Repetence, another "stun" on a one minute cooldown, but that one breaks on damage.

So does fear. And a paladins main stun doesn't break on damage and is the longest stun in the game as I recall. A well geared retnoob can kill you on his hammer stun if hes lucky with crits.

[Ninja Prime]

Problem is, those trinkets are useless when people can just be feared again. It's the chaining that really needs addressing, as it leaves others with no chance in hell.

But what really gets me here, is all the other nerfs. Take all the pet x normalizations hunters have had to endure from one patch to the next, as people would mention pets no less then fear. In all those cases, the argument of game balance comes up, and end of it. But now, what do we get, after nerf after nerf has been placed on others? A dev saying essentially "yes it isn't fair, but no one claimed locks are anything but a powerful solo class..." (well no one ever claimed hunters should be anything other then a powerful solo class, with all the same ramifications that devs statements would place in the argument either), "so game balance doesn't apply here. It's the making of a double standard.

Either the whole argument of game balance applies to all equally and in same measure, or it's a wash and something else. Very much that dev comes off favoring locks, and not other classes who stood at the crossroads of the nerf discussions hitherto. Yes, I've had more then a few laughs discussing that dev's statement with some other hunters.

Either game balance applies to all, or it should be applied to none. The whole argument can not hold as reason and justification to alter the game, unless it is applied to all, in an objective and impartial manner. Locks needing fear? Hunters need to be at range, which means either a pet that can't simply be ignored or a melee class to partner with who forces them to focus elsewhere. Take that away, and their practically useless, which is why the "gank them" tactic is so successful in shutting them down. But unlike a lock, they can't just fear targets off repeatadly, to regain range. Anything short of applying the idea of game balance in an equitable fashion, which favors no class; makes Blizzard look biased in favor of some, over others.

Whatever is done with this class, or any other though, unless it is applied in equal measure, accross the board, and impartially, at that time it ceases to look like "balance" is the real goal in said nerfs, and it begins to look like something very different. It is that, and that in the whole tone and demeanor of what that dev says, and his reasoning behind decisions made that, that really bothers me. Something simply can not be balanced by definition, if the concept isn't applied to all, but is rather only selectively applied to some, at the exclusion of others.

So stuns can't be applied again? Good to know. I guess I was playing another game where a rogue can stunlock me for over a minute if he wants...

Or if I'm a warrior, a mage can ice me down away from him permanently if he wants.

Or a hunter can kite me around forever while being immune to any CC.

But that fear that lasts a few seconds, and can be broken by a million spells/trinkets/abilities/minor damage that I become immune to after the third cast, thats the one I'm really scared of!

[lIqUID]

this game would be so much more fun without crowd control. I easily get past locks with my undead rogue, but my pally has a hell of a time not getting feared to death.

in PVP fear should be broken by ANY damage done, just like polymorph, sap and scattershot.

[Son Goku]

So stuns can't be applied again? Good to know. I guess I was playing another game where a rogue can stunlock me for over a minute if he wants...

A palys stun has a cooldown on it. They can not just keep stunning and stunning. I also remember having to wait for the CD, and when in raids, when a couple locks are banishing multiple targets, the same paly can't stun to break the next one right in a row due to the CD.

Or a hunter can kite me around forever while being immune to any CC.

This is pattently false; and I can speak as one who's current main is a hunter. I'm marksman spec now for raids, but I was BM, and am well aware of enrage pet and the beast within. However, this forever you speak of simply isn't there. Enrage pet has a duration of 18 secs, which is not forever. Also, it has a cooldown, as does intimidation (pet stun). Look at the mention on my main's talent trees for BM (though he doesn't have points there anymore), and see specifically what it says on duration and cooldown.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Aman%27Thul&n=Gotten

Under the skills people could mention, the text/tooltip, clearly shows, as can be seen on that page clearly shows that the effects duration is 18 secs long (hardly forever), and can not be recast for a 2 minute cooldown.

Lock cooldowns simply aren't restrictive like this.

Now as to the fear, it can be chained, and I do not care how many items with a long cooldown respective to the spam of fear are created. This wouldn't be balanced, until the trinket for instance could break fear on the same CD the lock can caste it. But I'll say this, if that devs response holds, then I'd be OK with the status quo remaining here, only if other nerfs to other classes get removed. If locks get to keep this, then hunters should be able to get their un-nerfed, non-normalized attack speed broaken tooths back. If they can't, it's time to hold that dev to task on the whole issue of game balance when locks are brought up too. Or I'll give the other mention to someone elses post, as I agree with someone else who posted latter.

[Son Goku]

this game would be so much more fun without crowd control. I easily get past locks with my undead rogue, but my pally has a hell of a time not getting feared to death.

in PVP fear should be broken by ANY damage done, just like polymorph, sap and scattershot.

See, here I agree. How many forms of CC can continue to function even while damage is taken, such as by DoTs, health drains, or other means. The only others I can think of off top of my head are stun (which like with a paly has more then a few sec CD) and frost nova, which to best of my knowledge doesn't seem to have one. However range can still attack when novaed, unless at least before this patch it was a hunter stuck in it's "no kill zone" between melee and range (adjusted in 2.3).

Sheep? A sheeped target regenerates health, while polymorphed and the effect is broaken when damage taken.

Freeze traps? Someone hits it, or one ends up trapping a DoTed target, instant broaken.

Most every form of CC is broaken when damage is taken, or the ability to respond (frost nova) isn't totally locked out to all classes. This one should be held to the same rules of damage breaks it automatically, as most any form of CC.

[OldOfEvil]

Now your reaching.


Most of the warlocks damage is going to occur via dots. When Mages and Hunters have to rely on dots, then we can talk about your CC being a little more forgiving on when it breaks.

[Medion]

So does fear. And a paladins main stun doesn't break on damage and is the longest stun in the game as I recall. A well geared retnoob can kill you on his hammer stun if hes lucky with crits.

I have a lock. Fear does not break on damage. DoTs have zero change to break a fear, while direct damage has a chance to break fear. Also, you can re-apply fear an infinite amount of times (limited by mana). In theory, you can fear/dot someone until they are dead.

A Paladin's stun is a one-shot type deal. And, a Ret Paladin isn't going to kill you during that stun unless A) they horrible outgear you AND B) they get REALLY lucky.

Bottom line is, comparing Warlock fear to a Paladin's stun is beyond assanine. It's just plain stupid.

[Son Goku]

I'm not reaching in the least; chain fearing and DoTing up is cheap, and DoTs should break fear. No less cheap, then if every person who got chain feared and DoTed (without their own faction being there to back them up), were to type /afk in a BG and accept the 15 min deserter debuff, then eat upon being thrown out, to avoid letting the kill happen.

In either case, I would never care to hear the argument of game balance applied to ANY class ever again. It's a wash. The real argument is that Blizzard can change the game any way they wish, at any time, even for purposes of screwing over specific chars, or giving others breaks they'd never give to some; and there's nothing that can be done about it. OK, it is their code, so they do have the power. But lets at least be honest in the implications of the dev's own words about the applicability or selective non-applicability of the idea of "game balance".

That developers own words convince me of one thing. People like him have no reason or gumption to be impartial in the least, by the guy's own statements. And no benefit of the doubt should ever be read into it, as long as his logic is reflective of the measuring rod, by which decisions are made wrt whether "balance" does or does not apply. As far as I'm concerned, that dev's own words put their foot squarely in their own mouth wrt this; and there is absolutely no way I could be convinced otherwise, as long as that "we can nerf, nerf nerf from one class to the next, but then selectively say "yeah I agree with you, but game balance was never meant to apply here[/b], after it's said and done for others. Now ever other class, on every other nerf ever considered to date, could have had the "it was never meant to apply there also", and then what. There is nothing "balanced" about being either selective, or partial in deciding when balance applies, and when it does not.

[Dvahlish]

Heres the thing...
Its a a game.
And since we arent the game developers, we either play it the way its designed to be played or we go and play another game.

Heaps of races have traits that I find annoying when coming across in battle, but instead of complaining...think of it as a challenge.

Balanced or not...we obviously dont have much say in it, so lets just play and enjoy it yeh?

[Son Goku]

Well whatever say depends on how much they care about public relations. But that dev's words prove one thing; there is no concept of "balance" which is applied in balanced measure, with said rationale behind decisions made. The words of that dev, are deserving of flack IMO.

[Ninja Prime]

I have a lock. Fear does not break on damage. DoTs have zero change to break a fear, while direct damage has a chance to break fear.

What game are you playing? Go ask a developer on blizzards website. Hell it was in the patch notes like a year ago. DoTs break fear, its based on damage done, so DoTs break them less, but unless you're the worst player ever and have geared for no +damage, your dots will break fear, usually in less than 5 seconds.

When I was affliction, I would rarely get more than 5 seconds worth of fear with DoTs on, but then I am well geared and understand the game mechanics, which clearly you do not.

[Ninja Prime]

This is pattently false; and I can speak as one who's current main is a hunter. I'm marksman spec now for raids, but I was BM, and am well aware of enrage pet and the beast within. However, this forever you speak of simply isn't there. Enrage pet has a duration of 18 secs, which is not forever. Also, it has a cooldown, as does intimidation (pet stun). Look at the mention on my main's talent trees for BM (though he doesn't have points there anymore), and see specifically what it says on duration and cooldown.

I was exaggerating, I think thats obvious, but the point is still there, who are you to cry about fear with a 18 second immunity every 2 minutes? Will of the Forsaken only lasts 5 seconds and has no extra damage component and people still cry about it. How do you think hunters ended up being the second(might be first by now) most played class?