View Full Version : ATI R400 vs. nVidia NV35
StealthHawk
04-18-03, 06:05 PM
moved to Hardware Rumor Mill
WIN WHAT ??? ummmm you need to be a little more clear :confused:
-=DVS=-
04-19-03, 03:14 AM
R400 will win offcourse its super duper card from ATI go fanATIcs :thumbsup: :D
Will win Speed race.
Will loose in "who's first on market".
GlowStick
04-19-03, 04:18 AM
smells like flamebait to me imho
Richthofen
04-19-03, 07:44 AM
because there won't be a R400 this year i think this question is nonsense.
I think the NV40 is more likely the competitor not NV35.
Only 3 to 4 weeks until the anouncement of NV35.
Should be NV35 vs. R350 w/DDR-II, or NV35 vs. R390. We won't see the first R4x0-based products until Spring at the very earliest.
MuFu.
Hanners
04-19-03, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by retsam
WIN WHAT ??? ummmm you need to be a little more clear :confused:
The 'having a bigger number' contest perhaps? :D
As for NV40 vs R400...
What about having some specs first?
Please?
Uttar
SurfMonkey
04-19-03, 03:45 PM
Sad... needs to be binned quickly.
Originally posted by MuFu
Should be NV35 vs. R350 w/DDR-II, or NV35 vs. R390. We won't see the first R4x0-based products until Spring at the very earliest.
Scratch that. Summer/Fall 2004 at the earliest now. :)
MuFu.
ellroy80
05-01-03, 06:21 PM
MuFu, can you explain yourself a little more? So there are R4x0 products coming out now (i.e. R400)? I though R400 had been scrapped? Or is this going to be the point where R500 is released, but they'll call it R400? :confused:
Sorry, yes of course. R400 was canned and the project became "R500" in an enhanced form (I suspect they are now targeting full DX10-compliancy on a 0.09u process). So the technology we would have seen in R400 will now realised in R500.
Meanwhile, ATi are devloping an ASIC that was initially called "Loci" but is now known as "R390" (by engineers) and "R420" (in an official/marketing capacity). It is basically a very, very fast R300 on 0.13u with a few architectural enhancements.
MuFu.
GlowStick
05-01-03, 09:18 PM
Thats what i kinda thought, they were just gonna start to ramp up the clock speeds with minor improvements, but more of just 'show' items.
ellroy80
05-01-03, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by MuFu
Sorry, yes of course. R400 was canned and the project became "R500" in an enhanced form (I suspect they are now targeting full DX10-compliancy on a 0.09u process). So the technology we would have seen in R400 will now realised in R500.
Meanwhile, ATi are devloping an ASIC that was initially called "Loci" but is now known as "R390" (by engineers) and "R420" (in an official/marketing capacity). It is basically a very, very fast R300 on 0.13u with a few architectural enhancements.
MuFu.
Thought so. Thanks for clearing that up MuFu! :)
Mufu, what happened to the "original" R500 design?
Nebuchadnezzar
05-02-03, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by Fotis
Mufu, what happened to the "original" R500 design?
R600 ? :p
Originally posted by MuFu
Sorry, yes of course. R400 was canned and the project became "R500" in an enhanced form (I suspect they are now targeting full DX10-compliancy on a 0.09u process). So the technology we would have seen in R400 will now realised in R500.
Meanwhile, ATi are devloping an ASIC that was initially called "Loci" but is now known as "R390" (by engineers) and "R420" (in an official/marketing capacity). It is basically a very, very fast R300 on 0.13u with a few architectural enhancements.
MuFu.
While I know your information has tended to be partway accurate I dont think ATI will be scrapping the R400 and have that tech released in R500. From what we know there were months of work put into the R400 project before it was shifted out to 2004 and canning it would mean more delays. Now they have to start almost afresh on R500 since now they wont be competing against the nv40 but the nv50 ( you get the picture :) ) and thats assuming that they took the decision soon enough.
Anyway ATI's recent releases smell of complacency (9800 and 9600 ).
Also do you know the release timeframe of R390. I doubt they will hit more than 600 Mhz core on .13u esp with lowK not available at TSMC and that would also mean a dustbuster required to cool it.
Originally posted by mbvgp
While I know your information has tended to be partway accurate I dont think ATI will be scrapping the R400 and have that tech released in R500.
Ok.
From what we know there were months of work put into the R400 project before it was shifted out to 2004 and canning it would mean more delays.
Of course, but that isn't really a problem. How can "canning it" mean more delays, anyway? That makes no sense. It hardly interrupted the design flow of what is now R500, if that's what you mean - hell, they haven't even bothered renaming most of the project material and just surged right ahead (despite the obvious confusion).
Now they have to start almost afresh on R500 since now they wont be competing against the nv40 but the nv50 ( you get the picture :) )
Yeah I get the picture, lol. Took me a while... :D
Even if that is the case, they are in a good position:
-R390/Loci/R420/(R400) is likely to be faster that the original R400 would have been in most situations anyway so their performance considerations come Fall are likely to be taken care of.
- R500 R&D would have only started late last year, so they're not "losing" much time if you like to look at it that way. If you look at it the other way, the run into R500 will now constitute the best part of 3 years R&D which can only be a good thing.
- They now have tech carried-over from the "old" R400 so even if they don't stick with the original target process, packaging etc for R500 they have enough of a "headstart" to sort all that all out in good time, anyway. I don't even think they'll use 0.09u for R500 now. RV500 will probably be the first 0.09u part (in a similar vein to what they have done with R350/RV350).
Anyway ATI's recent releases smell of complacency (9800 and 9600 ).
I'd probably use the word "confidence" instead, especially given the fact that they are now waiting to see how NV35 shapes up and have a number of options with regard to making a counter-move, against both NV35 and NV36. Their market share has just started to increase and I'm sure they can build on it further over the forthcoming months.
Also do you know the release timeframe of R390. I doubt they will hit more than 600 Mhz core on .13u esp with lowK not available at TSMC and that would also mean a dustbuster required to cool it.
Fall at the earliest. I think they could probably hit 550MHz+ on 0.13u (>3.0 k) with a 100mill+ transistor GPU if they wanted to, but perhaps won't need to given the boost provided by a small number of architectural enhancements/tweaks. Either way, I really doubt they are going to hold back at all when it comes to performance.
Following recent correspondance, I have pledged to not say any more publically about such matters (although I just did, um...). :p
MuFu.
Originally posted by MuFu
I'd probably use the word "confidence" instead, especially given the fact that they are now waiting to see how NV35 shapes up and have a number of options with regard to making a counter-move, against both NV35 and NV36. Their market share has just started to increase and I'm sure they can build on it further over the forthcoming months.
It's often you see people say that. But don't they (ATi and NV) pretty much know what the other one is up to? Surely ATi must know how NV35 will perform already and what the final core/memory speeds will be?
It sounded almost the same last year, when NV was "surprised" by the power of R300 and had to overclock the poor NV30 to death :p
So, how much do they know about what's going on at the "enemy lab" :)
nVidia knew about the R300, but the problem came when it ended up being slightly faster than they expected, and the NV30 being slower (and later) than they expected. It was a combination of things, rather than nVidia having absolutely no idea what ATi were doing. And of course, it works the other way too - When designing the R300, ATi really just looked at the standard speed progression from each nV core, and aimed just above the logical next step from nV. Good planning, combined with a chipset which just seemed to gel really well, gave them a great product.
Companies do have a fair idea what's going on at their competitiors, with a mixture of common sense, insider information, gossip, and general technological movements. But the element of suprise is always there, since things can change at the last minute (certainly with regard to core/mem speeds).
But yeah, there are no major things that either company aren't aware of. Same goes for Intel and AMD.
Originally posted by Paul
When designing the R300, ATi really just looked at the standard speed progression from each nV core, and aimed just above the logical next step from nV.
Hmm... from what I know, that isnt true at all. It was the first time they really just said "screw nV, we're going to make this thing as fast as we can". Companies playing second fiddle always tend to take the approach you mention - obviously, not doing so marked a big turning point for ATi.
MuFu.
Hmm, fair enough. It was really more just general speculation rather than anything concrete. Just seemed like a reasonably sensible way to go for ATi, imho.
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