R700 delayed till 2009

[Redeemed]

That is true- but gaming computers create a halo effect that sells lower cards. When you don't even have high end cards, those OEM deals get harder to come by.

Now, when you combine that with:
1. Defective, lower performing, delayed processor launch
2. Worse processors require motherboard chipset that isn't industry leader either
things start to look pretty bleak.

If you're Dell, what is your motivation to switch to AMD and anger your A list partners? The buggy processors? The 2nd tier motherboards? The 2nd tier GPUs?

The only people buying ATi these days are people who don't know any better, or really want ATi at any cost. Whatever they make, someone else makes better, and when you can say that- things aren't looking good.
Neither nVidia nor Intel have anything to compete with AMD/ATi in regards to HTPCs.

Furthermore, price/performance (leave over-clocking out of this as 99.9% of computer users have never heard of or do not know what overclocking is) in mainstream and low-end ATi dominates. For AMD in the mainstream they're not too far behind Intel- and in the low-end they're neck and neck. Again- *the vast majority of PC-users do not know how to overclock let alone what it is*. I deal with this "avg. Joe" on a daily basis as part of my job and I'm not exagerating when it comes to their ignorance. The only place AMD and ATi falls behind Intel significantly is in the high-end.

The fact that AMD's and ATi's performance for mainstream and low-end parts cost less while remaining competitive to Intel's and nVidia's is insentive enough for DELL, Compaq, and all the other major OEMs to use thier hardware. When the B3 Revision of the Phenoms are out and AMD can start pumping the Phenoms out by the masses- you'll probably see them drop to under $200. Currently Intel has no such offering.

I don't know how frequently I'm going to have to say this- but AMD and ATi are not focusing on the high-end anymore. They're targeting the mainstream and low-end segments, and they are probably going to attack there as viciously as possible. Things like "Hybrid-CrossFires" should only count as proof to further back up what I'm saying.

[agentkay]

Purevideo HD is actually better because it gives the end user full control over certain features (noise reduction for instance) and you can even fully disable them. Unless AMD/ATI added this function recently (which I don't know), I'd rather pick an Nvidia product that allows me the full control over such settings.

[SlickRig]

Furthermore, price/performance (leave over-clocking out of this as 99.9% of computer users have never heard of or do not know what overclocking is)


Actually I find that there are more and more PC users who know and understand the benefits of overclocking and a whole lot more people out there than you realize know how to do it.

Its not exactly rocket science you know, I mean how difficult is it to up the FSB even just a little bit?

[Redeemed]

Actually I find that there are more and more PC users who know and understand the benefits of overclocking and a whole lot more people out there than you realize know how to do it.

Its not exactly rocket science you know, I mean how difficult is it to up the FSB even just a little bit?

Buddy, I deal with your average joe computer user on a daily basis as part of my job. I repair computers for people. Yes, the average joe is as ignorant as I'm saying they are.

I'm not saying it is rocket science to oc, I'm just saying the average joe doesn't know what it is nor how to do it. I agree that OC'ing is *not rocket science*- regardless most people just don't care. They want to turn on their computer and have it do what they want it to. They don't care about the technicalities- only that it performs as they need it to. What makes the computer work, all the fine-tuning you can do to increase performance- none of that is known to most people. Take my word on this- I'm dealing with these very people you and I are discussing on a daily basis! :lol:

Heck, I had one guy come in with his laptop thinking that just because he had "wirelss internet back in Arkansas" that his wireless connection would follow him to California- he thought it worked just like your cellphone. I'm kidding you not- I litterally see hundreds of customers that are just as ignorant if not moreso. Honestly. :headexplode:

[Redeemed]

Purevideo HD is actually better because it gives the end user full control over certain features (noise reduction for instance) and you can even fully disable them. Unless AMD/ATI added this function recently (which I don't know), I'd rather pick an Nvidia product that allows me the full control over such settings.

Is that free? No, you have to *buy* PureVideo from nVidia:

http://www.nvidia.com/page/home_entertainment.html

As to noise reduction, I'm not certain. My experience with HTPCs is limited I'll admit.

[mtl]

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20071214153406_AMD_Delays_Introduction_of_Next_Gen eration_ATI_R700_Graphics_Chips.html

The reasons behind the delay of ATI R700 are unclear, but are believed to be related to AMD’s intention to cut down the research and development (R&D) expenses. The consequences of the decision may be dramatic, if not fatal, to AMD’s graphics product group, as state-of-the-art graphics technologies not only enable graphics cards that retail for the price as high as $849, but also open the door to video game consoles, which sell in hundreds of millions quantities.

This what happens when a company runs out of cash.

[fivefeet8]

Is that free? No, you have to *buy* PureVideo from nVidia:

http://www.nvidia.com/page/home_entertainment.html



No, you DON'T buy PureVideo. You DO buy the PureVideo DECODER if you don't have any other MPEG2 decoding software installed because that's the only thing the decoder does. It allows hardware accelleration of MPEG2 video within media players which don't include their own(IE. WMP) and uses PureVideo features. Most if not all commercial media players like PowerDVD and WinDVD include their own MPEG2 decoder for hardware accelleration.

PureVideo/HD features are included with the hardware and drivers. Then software like WinDVD and PowerDVD can be developed take advantage of them.

[Redeemed]

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20071214153406_AMD_Delays_Introduction_of_Next_Gen eration_ATI_R700_Graphics_Chips.html

The reasons behind the delay of ATI R700 are unclear, but are believed to be related to AMD’s intention to cut down the research and development (R&D) expenses. The consequences of the decision may be dramatic, if not fatal, to AMD’s graphics product group, as state-of-the-art graphics technologies not only enable graphics cards that retail for the price as high as $849, but also open the door to video game consoles, which sell in hundreds of millions quantities.

This what happens when a company runs out of cash.
NO! NO! NO! AMD- NO! What are they thinking???

Why cut cash to R&D when you're products are falling behind? Cut back on the luxuries they offer they're employees- sell the "company cars", anything but cut back on R&D- that's frikken' suicide!!!

Oh, I hope this is not accurate... :(

[Redeemed]

No, you DON'T buy PureVideo. You DO buy the PureVideo DECODER if you don't have any other MPEG2 decoding software installed because that's the only thing the decoder does.

PureVideo HD features are included with the hardware and drivers. Then software like WinDVD and PowerDVD can be developed take advantage of them.

:wtf:

So... any decoders that will work with MP11 or WMC? I'd like to see some of these features Agentkay was referring to...

[Redeemed]

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/2488/000119312507264822/d8k.htm

Seems they gave Ruiz a raise? :wtf: If these are the decisions you're making AMD- to cut R&D costs while giving Ruiz a raise- you have it comming if you go under. Are they really so ignorant?

[fivefeet8]

:wtf:

So... any decoders that will work with MP11 or WMC? I'd like to see some of these features Agentkay was referring to...

Have you checked the options in the CP? Noise reduction should be there even if you don't have a decoder. The main feature that comes with commercial decoders included in PowerDVD/WinDVD is hardware accelleration of various video formats like MPEG2, H.264, and WMV(VC-1). Which you don't get with decoders free or commercial that haven't been developed to take advantage of PureVideo. With the PureVideo decoder, which Nvidia sells, it allows hardware decoding of only MPEG2 in WMP/WMC and the included NstantMedia application that comes along with the decoder.

[Redeemed]

Here's a current Road Map. Products sound interesting- though I hope they aren't too little too late. :(

http://my.ocworkbench.com/bbs/showthread.php?p=424371#post424371

[Redeemed]

Have you checked the options in the CP? Noise reduction should be there even if you don't have a decoder. The main feature that comes with commercial decoders included in PowerDVD/WinDVD is hardware accelleration of various video formats like MPEG2, H.264, and WMV(VC-1). Which you don't get with decoders free or commercial that haven't been developed to take advantage of PureVideo. With the PureVideo decoder, which Nvidia sells, it allows hardware decoding of only MPEG2 in WMP/WMC and the included NstantMedia application that comes along with the decoder.

Yes, I have checked those options. Nothing to the extent of what AgentKay was mentioning. And I don't feel like buying a decoder just for options that I've been quite happy doing without. :p If I feel I need it, then I'll buy it. ;)

I am curious though, what does he mean by "noise cancelling"? Artifacts on the screen?

[agentkay]

Yes, I have checked those options. Nothing to the extent of what AgentKay was mentioning. And I don't feel like buying a decoder just for options that I've been quite happy doing without. :p If I feel I need it, then I'll buy it. ;)

I am curious though, what does he mean by "noise cancelling"? Artifacts on the screen?

No I meant the video related settings which are particulary nice to have when you have a HTPC. The GTX has two settings (other than the regular color related settings), Edge Enhancement and Noise Reduction but the 8600 (and newer) cards have the newer Purevideo chip and offer more settings and have better hardware acceleration than the old chip.

IIRC (or unless they changed it the last few months) AMD/ATI approach to such settings is that they are more adaptive but on the other side can't be fully disabled and/or adjusted and for a person who likes to have full control over all settings Nvidias approach is much better.

Noise Reduction is meant to reduce the "general grain" effect that a lot of HD movies have. Of course there are movies that use such effects in an artistic visual way and I believe thats where an adaptive solution can hurt picture quality (where the amount of grain changes with scenes).

[evilchris]

Purevideo HD is actually better because it gives the end user full control over certain features (noise reduction for instance) and you can even fully disable them. Unless AMD/ATI added this function recently (which I don't know), I'd rather pick an Nvidia product that allows me the full control over such settings.

No NVIDIA on the market performs full offload of the VC-1 codec used in most HD DVD and some Blu-ray titles. Only ATi does. NVIDIA only does this for h.264. Unacceptable.

[fivefeet8]

No NVIDIA on the market performs full offload of the VC-1 codec used in most HD DVD and some Blu-ray titles. Only ATi does. NVIDIA only does this for h.264. Unacceptable.

They don't do FULL offload, but they do offload most of the work of VC-1 to the GPU. You're still going to get good performance and much lower CPU utilization when compared to having no offload at all. And like Agent said, you do get more granular control over noise reduction and edge enhancement with Nvidia's cards at the moment.

And I don't feel like buying a decoder just for options that I've been quite happy doing without. :p If I feel I need it, then I'll buy it. ;)

I am curious though, what does he mean by "noise cancelling"? Artifacts on the screen?

You won't see the benefits of these decoders if you don't watch 1080p video streams. Hardware decoding of 1080p video does offload a tremendous amount of work from the CPU. To give you an idea, disabling PureVideo hardware decoding from PowerDVD strains my CPU up to 100% with dropped frames and stuttering playback on a 1080p video VC-1 stream that I have. Enabling it, drops the CPU utilization down to 30% and below with no dropped frames and smooth playback. Even with my Dual Core CPU, without hardware offload it would have made my enjoyment of the video less than stellar.

[evilchris]

They don't do FULL offload, but they do offload most of the work of VC-1 to the GPU. You're still going to get good performance and much lower CPU utilization when compared to having no offload at all. And like Agent said, you do get more granular control over noise reduction and edge enhancement with Nvidia's cards at the moment.





I am only using my HTPC for HD. Edge enhancement and NR are two of the biggest no-nos there are with HD material. You want absolutely *nothing* done to the signal.

[agentkay]

I am only using my HTPC for HD. Edge enhancement and NR are two of the biggest no-nos there are with HD material. You want absolutely *nothing* done to the signal.

But thats my point, I remember an article (Dailytech IIRC) where both technologies were compared and the ATI one had adaptive filters which they couldn't disable and modify like the Purevideo ones. Again, I don't know if they still do it that way but you could tell us since you have a card like that.

[evilchris]

I'll check.

[KasuCode]

We got a confirmation that R7xx generation is on schedule for 2008 and it won't be shifted to 2009 as many journalist believes. Many journos made the assumption based on Mario Rivas presentation at Investor days.

Mario was talking about Leo platform and showed the slide with Leo platform that has R7xx based scheduled for 2009.

According to current plans R7xx parts in a platform are scheduled for 2009. This doesn’t mean that the discrete products will be late, but at least today it looks that ATI can delved them on time, at least at some point of 2008.


http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4762&Itemid=1




?

[fivefeet8]

But thats my point, I remember an article (Dailytech IIRC) where both technologies were compared and the ATI one had adaptive filters which they couldn't disable and modify like the Purevideo ones. Again, I don't know if they still do it that way but you could tell us since you have a card like that.

Heh. Dailytech reported it. But it was AMD making some accusations about "cheating" in HD tests with Noise Reduction. They raised the NR setting to 75%, then claimed cheating. :D

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=8608

Here's an interesting quote:
NVIDIA also fights back at the allegations, highlighting that the ForceWare driver allows users to adjust the noise reduction levels on their own, and even completely disable the feature. AMD’s noise reduction implementation is adaptive and applies varying levels of noise reduction, depending on the situation and what the driver deems necessary.

However, users cannot turn off AMD's noise reduction feature, which may be an issue in intentionally grainy movies such as 300, according to Allen.

[AngelGraves13]

Can AMD just sell ATI to NVIDIA before they fully destroy what's left of ATI?

I'd hate to see Intel buy AMD and ATI and then face off with NVIDIA.

[Niot]

AMD is doing fine and will surivive. I'm going to get them for the next computer.

Cheap and effective.

[AthlonXP1800]

AMD is doing fine and will surivive. I'm going to get them for the next computer.

Cheap and effective.

:rofl

AMD did not think it will be cheap and effective accorded to their cautionary statement:

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/773/amdcautiongr2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

AMD investors certainly dont think AMD will survive in 2008 when they saw new revised roadmap only to find AMD delayed RD800 series chipset from 2008 to 2009, no R800, no RD900 series chipset and no desktop octal core CPU for 2009. R700 may be schedule to release in end of 2007 but the launch may be slipping into 2009. If the new roadmap is accurate then AMD CPU will be 2 generations behind Intel and AMD GPU 1 generation behind Nvidia when they will launch Geforce 10 in early 2009, a year after Geforce 9 launch in March 2008.

Here no hope for AMD in 2009 when Intel will launch next generation affordable desktop 8 core CPU with 16 threads that will crush AMD desktop quad core with 4 threads.

Have you seen AMD stock? It tanked all time low at $7.93 on Monday as result of the roadmap revealed products delays and never seened before cautionary statement showed at analyst meeting last Thursday.

[Rollo]

AMD is doing fine and will surivive. I'm going to get them for the next computer.

Cheap and effective.

AMD is no where close to "fine" and their survival these days is somewhat of a crapshoot.

Their stock has plummeted, they're heavily in debt, and everything they make someone else makes better.

This is not the scenario you hope to be in as a business.