OldGamer
01-27-08, 01:52 PM
What you "bet" doesn't matter one iota. What matters is that it's an option and that your original hypothesis about a 1,500$ HD cost to run a console on is an elaborated fantasy. That's anything but necessary and comes down to the buyer's discretion.
M bet matters to me by the way. Do you disagree with my statement that almost no consoles are attached to PC monitors?
Where are you getting this "over 1000$" from? You do know that a PS3 can be had for 399$ and a 360 for 329$, right? So tell me how that equates to the funds needed for a PC of equivalent power which would probably consist of:
--a 280$ graphics card like the 8800GT, 250$ processor, 150$ power supply, 60$ hard drive, 70$ sound card, 40$ DVD drive, 100$ motherboard, 100$ operating system etc?
And none of that gets you a blu-ray or HD-DVD player, either.
PS3 for $399? Perhaps but the last I checked (At XMas) They were $600. And please don't start using that EBay thing. :) Also I am pretty sure anyone here will argue the merits purchasing sound card these days are few and far in between. I can buy a Blu-Ray/HD-DVD for the PC that even burns Blue Ray! Not gonna get that with the PS3 or XBox. Have you checked the Dell site for example? I know they arent the Cadilacs of PCs but you can get a great deal on a PC that is suitable for gaming. The OS can be reused for each upgrade and since most of us are using a 7 year old operating system chances are that extra $100 can go is not going to be a needed for a pc upgrade.
I have a feeling that you haven't played too many PS3 games on a decent setup by addressing it with your "2-year-old GPU technology" remark, either. Have you played the new Ratchet & Clank game? Uncharted? Motor Storm? Try them out and tell me that they look like 3-year old technology. Any one of these games run circles around anything that's on the PC, graphically, with the exception of Crysis.
Never played any games on the PS3. I watch them from time to time at Best Buy on that "fantasy" HD plasma setup you say are talking about. But don't deny that the GPU is basically GeForce 7800 technology.
There's a lot more to graphics than GPU power. There's memory allocation, CPU power (physics and animation), art direction and many other factors to consider. The PS3 pretty much trumps the high-end PCs on the market in all of these categories. You have 8 SPEs to run code on with the cell, more dedicated/talented artists and development teams, and a closed system that is dedicated to nothing but gaming and not hampered by a buggy operating system. All this not to mention the fact that, since it's a closed system, developers can push it to the limits--something that cannot be done in the PC-gaming realm. Developers are forced to scale down to the mid-range systems since they represent the majority of their audience.
I don't need a lesson on the workings of a modern digital device. And for sure the time and tweaking that goes into the development of a closed system such as a console is way beyond the refinement performed on the usual PC release. Its the nature of the platform. Still the tricks and "cheats" (viewpoint optimization, limits on level design, static backgrounds, dynamically adjusted AF and low quality AA) they use to propel the perceived level of graphical detail does not lead to any conclusion about the capability of a PC GPU. There is always that game that comes to the PC that surpasses the limits of even the fastest PC at introduction. (ex. Quake 3, Oblivion, Crysis) These are great for the industry IMO and extend the life of these games since modders and such are given time to produce great content at what still is considered high end graphics even two years after an engine is released.
That's your preference, and that's fine. It's not really a factor for me, because the variety of games on a console trumps what's on a PC. You have a lot more than just shooters to choose from.
Name one type of game you can play on a console that cannot be played on a PC. In fact you cannot even play a decent RTS game on a console because there simply arent enough keys to map to the interface. I need more than a few buttons and triggers to play Supreme Commander the way its meant to be played. ;)
Quit straw-manning me; I never said that. You're the one who mentioned that you could "pay your bills" on your PC--as if you couldn't do that on a console. I was just clarifying that you can do what you said couldn't be done. You were wrong with your statement.
I have never once said nor claimed that you can do everything on a console that you can do on a PC. My comments have been restricted to gaming only aside from pointing out the error in your above statement.
I said pay your bills and work. You overlooked the second (most important) feature yet again. Straw manning... Heh, good word.
Well then you must hit the bargain bin after a game's been out for a year or two, because every new PC release comes out between 39.99-54.99 where I live. That's pretty standard for a new PC game.
Absolutely. And they usually go on sale for less than $40 somewhere at release. I got COH, Crysis and COD4 for less than $40 each before XMas in a retail store.
Again, my concern is not what "most people use." If most people are too boneheaded to shop at ebay for prices half of what you would pay at retail outlets, that's their own fault.
Your E-Bay argument can be applied to almost anything including PCs so for the sake of this discussion it is simpler to just refer to the actual price of things rather than the price some dude charges for a potentially home resealed, installation code already used so it won't let me register price. :D
Do you buy everything on EBay?
You also act as if this 5-10$ retail you save per PC game is some huge chunk of cash. That hardly equates to the hundreds and hundreds of dollars in price difference between a high-end PC and a 360/PS3.
Well lets assume I buy 10 PC games a year for $40 and the same 10 games for console at $60 each. That's $200 bucks a year. After two years I can get myself a new GPU upgrade with the money saved. So yes it can be hundreds and hundreds.
Also why would you compare price of the high end PC to the bottom of the barrel versions of consoles. One controller? No cables? No remote? That's no fun.
No HD DVD drive for XBox? 40GB HD on the PS3? Based on what the UT3 release stated there are extra maps, mods and patches going on that little disk. How long before that fills up?
Which are basically nil aside from the fact that FPSs will always play better on a PC. It's a good thing too, because 90% of PC titles consist of those.
Thanks. I had hoped you would argue the twitch thing with me. That's a place I didn't want to dive into too deeply. (Its obvious to any gamer.)
Last time I checked the local game shelf RPGs were more abundant that FPSs. Also driving games play well on the PC if you have a good wheel. Don't forget the flight sims or my personal favorite: RTS games.
Anyhow this has been a good discussion and I think we have probably both said our fill. Perhaps someone else can add to our discussion? Enjoy your PS3. I hope it proves to be as resilient as the PS2 was/is to future advances in gaming software.
M bet matters to me by the way. Do you disagree with my statement that almost no consoles are attached to PC monitors?
Where are you getting this "over 1000$" from? You do know that a PS3 can be had for 399$ and a 360 for 329$, right? So tell me how that equates to the funds needed for a PC of equivalent power which would probably consist of:
--a 280$ graphics card like the 8800GT, 250$ processor, 150$ power supply, 60$ hard drive, 70$ sound card, 40$ DVD drive, 100$ motherboard, 100$ operating system etc?
And none of that gets you a blu-ray or HD-DVD player, either.
PS3 for $399? Perhaps but the last I checked (At XMas) They were $600. And please don't start using that EBay thing. :) Also I am pretty sure anyone here will argue the merits purchasing sound card these days are few and far in between. I can buy a Blu-Ray/HD-DVD for the PC that even burns Blue Ray! Not gonna get that with the PS3 or XBox. Have you checked the Dell site for example? I know they arent the Cadilacs of PCs but you can get a great deal on a PC that is suitable for gaming. The OS can be reused for each upgrade and since most of us are using a 7 year old operating system chances are that extra $100 can go is not going to be a needed for a pc upgrade.
I have a feeling that you haven't played too many PS3 games on a decent setup by addressing it with your "2-year-old GPU technology" remark, either. Have you played the new Ratchet & Clank game? Uncharted? Motor Storm? Try them out and tell me that they look like 3-year old technology. Any one of these games run circles around anything that's on the PC, graphically, with the exception of Crysis.
Never played any games on the PS3. I watch them from time to time at Best Buy on that "fantasy" HD plasma setup you say are talking about. But don't deny that the GPU is basically GeForce 7800 technology.
There's a lot more to graphics than GPU power. There's memory allocation, CPU power (physics and animation), art direction and many other factors to consider. The PS3 pretty much trumps the high-end PCs on the market in all of these categories. You have 8 SPEs to run code on with the cell, more dedicated/talented artists and development teams, and a closed system that is dedicated to nothing but gaming and not hampered by a buggy operating system. All this not to mention the fact that, since it's a closed system, developers can push it to the limits--something that cannot be done in the PC-gaming realm. Developers are forced to scale down to the mid-range systems since they represent the majority of their audience.
I don't need a lesson on the workings of a modern digital device. And for sure the time and tweaking that goes into the development of a closed system such as a console is way beyond the refinement performed on the usual PC release. Its the nature of the platform. Still the tricks and "cheats" (viewpoint optimization, limits on level design, static backgrounds, dynamically adjusted AF and low quality AA) they use to propel the perceived level of graphical detail does not lead to any conclusion about the capability of a PC GPU. There is always that game that comes to the PC that surpasses the limits of even the fastest PC at introduction. (ex. Quake 3, Oblivion, Crysis) These are great for the industry IMO and extend the life of these games since modders and such are given time to produce great content at what still is considered high end graphics even two years after an engine is released.
That's your preference, and that's fine. It's not really a factor for me, because the variety of games on a console trumps what's on a PC. You have a lot more than just shooters to choose from.
Name one type of game you can play on a console that cannot be played on a PC. In fact you cannot even play a decent RTS game on a console because there simply arent enough keys to map to the interface. I need more than a few buttons and triggers to play Supreme Commander the way its meant to be played. ;)
Quit straw-manning me; I never said that. You're the one who mentioned that you could "pay your bills" on your PC--as if you couldn't do that on a console. I was just clarifying that you can do what you said couldn't be done. You were wrong with your statement.
I have never once said nor claimed that you can do everything on a console that you can do on a PC. My comments have been restricted to gaming only aside from pointing out the error in your above statement.
I said pay your bills and work. You overlooked the second (most important) feature yet again. Straw manning... Heh, good word.
Well then you must hit the bargain bin after a game's been out for a year or two, because every new PC release comes out between 39.99-54.99 where I live. That's pretty standard for a new PC game.
Absolutely. And they usually go on sale for less than $40 somewhere at release. I got COH, Crysis and COD4 for less than $40 each before XMas in a retail store.
Again, my concern is not what "most people use." If most people are too boneheaded to shop at ebay for prices half of what you would pay at retail outlets, that's their own fault.
Your E-Bay argument can be applied to almost anything including PCs so for the sake of this discussion it is simpler to just refer to the actual price of things rather than the price some dude charges for a potentially home resealed, installation code already used so it won't let me register price. :D
Do you buy everything on EBay?
You also act as if this 5-10$ retail you save per PC game is some huge chunk of cash. That hardly equates to the hundreds and hundreds of dollars in price difference between a high-end PC and a 360/PS3.
Well lets assume I buy 10 PC games a year for $40 and the same 10 games for console at $60 each. That's $200 bucks a year. After two years I can get myself a new GPU upgrade with the money saved. So yes it can be hundreds and hundreds.
Also why would you compare price of the high end PC to the bottom of the barrel versions of consoles. One controller? No cables? No remote? That's no fun.
No HD DVD drive for XBox? 40GB HD on the PS3? Based on what the UT3 release stated there are extra maps, mods and patches going on that little disk. How long before that fills up?
Which are basically nil aside from the fact that FPSs will always play better on a PC. It's a good thing too, because 90% of PC titles consist of those.
Thanks. I had hoped you would argue the twitch thing with me. That's a place I didn't want to dive into too deeply. (Its obvious to any gamer.)
Last time I checked the local game shelf RPGs were more abundant that FPSs. Also driving games play well on the PC if you have a good wheel. Don't forget the flight sims or my personal favorite: RTS games.
Anyhow this has been a good discussion and I think we have probably both said our fill. Perhaps someone else can add to our discussion? Enjoy your PS3. I hope it proves to be as resilient as the PS2 was/is to future advances in gaming software.