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Nanosuitguy
01-29-08, 05:12 PM
Like topic says, what engine(s)? I am speaking the 3dmarks in general, they use different from release to release but i am most interested in the latest one (06)

Anyone know what engines they using? in-house made?

jeffmd
01-29-08, 05:30 PM
isn't it Havok?

jAkUp
01-29-08, 05:34 PM
Havok is the physics engine they use, not sure what they use for graphics.

JigenD
01-29-08, 05:39 PM
The first 3d mark used something made by the people at Max Payne (they're sister companies), I think 99 used the first Unreal engine maybe...

They do a lot of the engine coding themselves though, especially for newer ones, at least I think so.

Nanosuitguy
01-29-08, 06:13 PM
Would like to know what engine they use for the later 3dmarks 03, 05 and 06.. Anyone?

JigenD
01-29-08, 06:18 PM
Would like to know what engine they use for the later 3dmarks 03, 05 and 06.. Anyone?

All of them were made by FM : http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:LnN17g6KOfMJ:www.beyond3d.com/content/interviews/16/+3dmark+graphics+engine&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us&client=firefox-a

SH64
01-29-08, 06:19 PM
FutureMark's proprietary engine ?

Nanosuitguy
01-29-08, 06:56 PM
All of them were made by FM : http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:LnN17g6KOfMJ:www.beyond3d.com/content/interviews/16/+3dmark+graphics+engine&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us&client=firefox-a

Interesting, because i think 3dmark06 looks really good. Oh i so wish i could use some kind of devmode or so flying around in the maps and looking. Imagine being able to walk around in Firefly forest or Deep freez :captnkill:

Too bad its not possible :(

LordJuanlo
01-30-08, 04:04 AM
Havok is the physics engine they use, not sure what they use for graphics.

3DMark06 uses AGEIA physics

svetli_pp
01-30-08, 06:03 AM
It's not quite an engine, it's DX kind of stuff.

jeffmd
01-30-08, 10:16 AM
it looks like all the 3dmarks BEFORE '03 used the MAX-FX engine, and '03 they needed a shader heavy engine so they made there own from that point up.

Nanosuitguy
01-30-08, 04:23 PM
wat is a vegetation fetish? :(

jeffmd
01-30-08, 05:19 PM
According to yahztee, its what us crysis fans have. ^^

mezkal
01-30-08, 05:51 PM
I think I remember seeing reference to Max-FX in the credits for 06 as well. Remedy have always been the application side (ie the Max Payne games, among others including the upcoming Alan Wake) and FutureMark (3Dmark the testing suite side).

Also, 3Dmark06 uses the software side of AGEIA, I don't think it supports the PPU.

They both come from their origins as a demoscene crew - Future Crew. Which is why the first 3Dmark (Final Reality) makes strong references to FC's most popular demo Second Reality. Incidentally, Second Reality, was even 'ported' (re-realised) to the Commodore 64 by a group called Smash Designs!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVPW40ygds4
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Reality

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remedy_Entertainment

JigenD
01-30-08, 06:11 PM
They both come from their origins as a demoscene crew - Future Crew. Which is why the first 3Dmark (Final Reality) makes strong references to FC's most popular demo Second Reality. Incidentally, Second Reality, was even 'ported' (re-realised) to the Commodore 64 by a group called Smash Designs!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVPW40ygds4
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Reality

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remedy_Entertainment

It really is a shame how much worse they are now.

jeffmd
01-30-08, 09:20 PM
jiggens post made me want to lookup the scene and see what was happening in the past 6 months. Downloaded alot of compo winners and wasnt impressed, but did fine hell of a gem. Many of us have seen the "64k intros", short little demos that fit an amazing amount of data into a small amount of space (in this case, 64Kbytes).

Heres a 177k wonder by fr-041 called debri. Its a full sized demo that at first looks like an impressive but simple city scape crammed into 177kbytes...then all hell breaks loose.

http://www.scene.org/file.php?file=/parties/2007/breakpoint07/demo/fr-041_debris.zip&fileinfo

Tr1cK
01-30-08, 09:45 PM
jiggens post made me want to lookup the scene and see what was happening in the past 6 months. Downloaded alot of compo winners and wasnt impressed, but did fine hell of a gem. Many of us have seen the "64k intros", short little demos that fit an amazing amount of data into a small amount of space (in this case, 64Kbytes).

Heres a 177k wonder by fr-041 called debri. Its a full sized demo that at first looks like an impressive but simple city scape crammed into 177kbytes...then all hell breaks loose.

http://www.scene.org/file.php?file=/parties/2007/breakpoint07/demo/fr-041_debris.zip&fileinfo

wow

JigenD
01-30-08, 10:00 PM
The site I check regularly for the scene is pouet.net Really great, I always at least search popular in 30 day increments.

mezkal
01-30-08, 10:40 PM
jiggens post made me want to lookup the scene and see what was happening in the past 6 months.

It was my post but no bother.

Debris is what the demo is called and it's by a crew called Farb-Rausch, probably the most innovative and consistently contributing team to have graced the demoscene in years - these guys even make demo making tools and plugin synths which they release free to the public/scene. Debris is amazing for what it looks, sounds and animates like. It's also over a year old now. All of their demos, with the exception of The Popular Demo (my personal fave) use iterative coding at some level and kkreiger an FPS game that is under 64k is probably the most interesting for gamers.

My second fave of their's is Candytron, another 64k demo that their first that used a dynamic synthesiser (the plugin mentioned above) that actually SINGS.

I also did a remix of tune by recording it, splitting it up into parts and laying down my own tracks within the mix. http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?PID=396175&t=4537

www.farb-rausch.com | http://www.farb-rausch.com/productions.php

Eliminator
01-30-08, 10:48 PM
jiggens post made me want to lookup the scene and see what was happening in the past 6 months. Downloaded alot of compo winners and wasnt impressed, but did fine hell of a gem. Many of us have seen the "64k intros", short little demos that fit an amazing amount of data into a small amount of space (in this case, 64Kbytes).

Heres a 177k wonder by fr-041 called debri. Its a full sized demo that at first looks like an impressive but simple city scape crammed into 177kbytes...then all hell breaks loose.

http://www.scene.org/file.php?file=/parties/2007/breakpoint07/demo/fr-041_debris.zip&fileinfo
that 96kb FPS is the best... just imagine what they could do with 200kb:crosseye:

|MaguS|
01-30-08, 10:57 PM
that 96kb FPS is the best... just imagine what they could do with 200kb:crosseye:

no much more... the entire thing is vert limited actually due to everything being compiled at run time, it would not be a good technology to be used for real full games. I mean it takes a decent amount of time to load 96KB, imagine1MB.

mezkal
01-30-08, 11:01 PM
Spore uses iterative coding to cope with the scale that works in - that of a universe. Molyeneux discussed this in some detail, actually referring to the demoscene at GDC 2006. Other games are also on the horizon.

JigenD
01-31-08, 03:41 AM
no much more... the entire thing is vert limited actually due to everything being compiled at run time, it would not be a good technology to be used for real full games. I mean it takes a decent amount of time to load 96KB, imagine1MB.

What would be the purpose too? If you're going to have the processing power to do this kind of stuff, you're going to have more than 96kb available in storage too.

mezkal
01-31-08, 06:03 AM
Think on a much larger scale, where kkreiger's 96k of procedural instructions is equivalent to only one part the landmass of an island, which in turn is only one small portion of a planet, a planet which exists in solar system of say 10 planets and each solar system existing within a spiral arm which is only small part of a complete universe.

That's the scale that Spore works on.

Now, we're not just talking about barren, static planets but rather the whole universe is rife with organisms that can evolve from simple single celled protozoa to vast populations of developed culture, complete with architecture, art and science (in terms of engineering research, not so much disease control or eugenics - that's a little beyond this scale of simulation).

The key thing about all of this is that the creatures that you can control evolve by interacting (often killing or eating ) each other. So what your protozoa consumes is what it can use to evolve further to grow eyes, legs, tails, feet and the like. As your creature evolves, so does the game experience, from top down arcade style to 3D third person (control a single creature long enough to get) to RTS 3D (control a tribe of creatures then grow that into a nation) and then eventually develop space flight to travel to other planets, solar systems and parts of the universe.

That's a goddam huge scale and its all connected via evolution so there's no specific fixed creatures just elements of what they might be comprised of as individuals and elements of what their tribes might be and how they might communicate, make war, make art, build, develop technology and interact with other creatures who might do the same.

That's where iterative/procedural coding comes in because without it there's almost no hope to run such a sim in 4TB of RAM, let alone 4GB. Textures, sound, models and huge databases of simulation aspects just could not fit into the kind of consumer computers we use, so if the game is mainly comprised of recipes for generating content procedurally then it's possible make the PC generate the content on the fly. This makes it all scalable as well because what the PC creates, it makes as references mainly. Like being able to make a whole menu of foods from a smaller selection of ingredients that can be reused again and again. The only cost is storage space so you eventually you run out of room for all the food.

So in Spore's case the ceiling is a universe. One based on variations and repetitions of simple rules.

Will can tell you better than I can describe it: -

It's an hour long presentation so put some time aside. Lengthy but worthy (cue the Bigman).
http://video.google.com/url?docid=-262774490184348066&esrc=sr1&ev=v&len=3675&q=Spore%2Bwill%2Bwright%2Bprocedural%2B2006&srcurl=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.google.com.au%2Fvideopla y%3Fdocid%3D-262774490184348066&vidurl=%2Fvideoplay%3Fdocid%3D-262774490184348066%26q%3DSpore%2Bwill%2Bwright%2Bp rocedural%2B2006%26total%3D1%26start%3D0%26num%3D1 0%26so%3D0%26type%3Dsearch%26plindex%3D0&usg=AL29H22pRBpfAV_9hnZbTqK35pXPUxNs3g

I have no idea when it's scheduled at this stage but when I saw it at GDC 2k6, it was utterly amazing and later when Robin Williams played it (I only saw the vid) it seemed even more complete and accessible.

Some people won't get it (just as some don't get kkreiger's purpose) but this is the future of gaming and communication online. SL and world's like them are so limited because you only get to see a small portion of the map at one time and are forced to sit through some sort of loading step as your next destination becomes realised inside your PC. Procedural/iterative content creation will make all of that a thing of the past by being much larger in scale and seamless throughout.

Sorry for the rant, but Spore and iterative coding really excites me.

Nanosuitguy
01-31-08, 06:41 AM
jiggens post made me want to lookup the scene and see what was happening in the past 6 months. Downloaded alot of compo winners and wasnt impressed, but did fine hell of a gem. Many of us have seen the "64k intros", short little demos that fit an amazing amount of data into a small amount of space (in this case, 64Kbytes).

Heres a 177k wonder by fr-041 called debri. Its a full sized demo that at first looks like an impressive but simple city scape crammed into 177kbytes...then all hell breaks loose.

http://www.scene.org/file.php?file=/parties/2007/breakpoint07/demo/fr-041_debris.zip&fileinfo

OMFG, but how is possible to fit that much textures, objects, physics and shadows/lighting calculations in one silly 177kb exe file? That is just god damn ridiculous! :eek:

This make me think why the hell Gears of war is over 10GB huge...