Interesting 9800 Review....

[RobHague]

There are lots of ATi Radeon 9800 PRO reviews around, but what makes this one from VR-Zone interesting is that they measured voltages...

http://www.vr-zone.com/reviews/ATi/R9800Pro/

ATi engineers has improved the physical layer of the GPU to allow for higher core clock of 380Mhz although the process technology is still at 0.15 micron. However, we find that the core voltage to the GPU has been increased too and we will discuss more about it later in the article. ATi is still using the same 2.8ns memory like the Radeon 9700 Pro but since the 2.8ns memory corresponds to 350Mhz memory clock effective therefore the 340Mhz memory clock of the Radeon 9800 Pro is still within specs.

Incidentally, i have check out the various voltages supplied to the GPU and memory using the voltmeter for possible modifications and i stumbled upon the fact that the VGPU is 1.68V for the Radeon 9800 Pro instead of default 1.5V for Radeon 9700 Pro. Therefore the GPU is overvolted to allow for higher core clock at 380Mhz. The thermal heat dissipation is definitely higher now with higher core clock and higher VGPU therefore a good cooler will be needed definitely. I have also checked out the VDDQ and Vref which turn out to be 2.94V and 1.4V respectively.

Interesting...

[Mariner]

Therefore the GPU is overvolted to allow for higher core clock at 380Mhz.

Or perhaps the chip was designed with a higher voltage in mind? Seems part of the "R350 is nothing more than an overclocked R300" argument to me.

It's irrelevant really how higher performance is achieved for any chip as long as it is actually achieved.

My opinion, by the way, is that R350 is little more than a modified R300 (by maybe 5%) - but we already knew this. It's irrelevant for me because it's too expensive! :D

While I'm at it, does anyone know if/when a passively cooled 9600 Pro will be released? Are Sapphire making one with a smaller heatsink than the 9700 pro Ultimate? Anything that will fit in the Shuttle SFF I'm getting soon will do.

[ATI LoVeR 9700]

It was ok for nVidia to release the Geforce 3 TI 500 though...

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by ATI LoVeR 9700
It was ok for nVidia to release the Geforce 3 TI 500 though...

no, it wasn't. I slammed them back then for releasing such a subpar "refresh."

[RobHague]

Originally posted by StealthHawk
no, it wasn't. I slammed them back then for releasing such a subpar "refresh."

They never claimed it to be a Geforce 3.1 though did they? ;) The GF3 Ti series seemed fine to me, with the nice Ti200 being introduced it made them cheap enough for people like me to be able to get hold of one (a gf3). :)

[Hellbinder]

This entire subject is plain Nvidia Fanboy BS.

The 9800 includes several features that the 9700 does not. It is a far bigger update than the Gf3 Ti 500 was. You all seem to conviniently forget that the 9800pro also contains increases Vertex engine support. with 65,000 Static instructions among other things. Couppled with the F-Buffer Technology, enhanced Memory Controler, tweaked layers for higher clock speed, and Improved hardware for Occlusion culling with Stencil shadows.

The idea that the 9800 is nothing but an overclocked 9700pro is completely preposterous.

My main beef with the 9800pro is that ATi cut the leggs out from underneath it. By not releasing it, or a version of it at 425/500 or there abouts.

So yes, while i am dissapointed at the 9800pro in the form it was introduced it is by no means just an overclocked 9700pro. Which should be obvious to any of you.

[RobHague]

Hey im just posting the facts HellBender ;). Like you do, although i thought u didnt favour any company over another? I seem to have struck a nerve... ;)

The idea that the 9800 is nothing but an overclocked 9700pro is completely preposterous.

But obviously the truth in some respects. The 'advances' are nothing more than token changes and the so called 'optimization' is most likley just the new process to squeeze as much Mhz out of the dated 0.15u core as they can. ;) It seems more than obvious that there is some truth to that when the GPU is volted so high - makes me wonder about the stability of the VPU with prolonged use and the increased possiblity of crash's/lockups due to signal noise.... hmmm.

The 9800 includes several features that the 9700 does not. It is a far bigger update than the Gf3 Ti 500 was. You all seem to conviniently forget that the 9800pro also contains increases Vertex engine support. with 65,000 Static instructions among other things. Couppled with the F-Buffer Technology, enhanced Memory Controler, tweaked layers for higher clock speed, and Improved hardware for Occlusion culling with Stencil shadows.


But the Geforce3 Ti was never called a Geforce 3.1 Ti was it? ;) They were higher a lower clocked solutions to fit prices ranges. The changes you speak of are nothing more than token changes to match NVIDIA, in short its to give them some PR BS to use when NVIDIA say they have a more programable platform. It would be interesting to downclock the 9800 and use the newer tweaked drivers on the 9700 (the soft 9800) and see how they perform....

If we check the facts after the 9700's sucess what do ATI do after all that time that passed? Release a half-arsed update to the 9700 with token changes to make it look good on paper. Now it seems digging a little deeper modified 9700 drivers can make it perform almost as good as this 'new' product does (i believe ATI are holding back certain driver optimizations that make the 9700 perform even better for urrm ""testing""" not because it gives the 9800 an even smaller lead of course ;)) and the core and memory are volted up... very strange.

[Moose]

Well even if it is over volted, I don't think it nearly compares to what Nvidia had to do to get the GFFX running.

All the ATI 9800's I've seen pics of show it using only one slot without the need for a dustbuster to keep it cool enough to run.

If I were you I would be much more concerned about that.

Also this looks good on much more than just paper. It looks good on the monitor as well.

Right now I'd say that Nvidia has a big problem touting Cinematic Graphics as the next big thing, but then lowering their IQ so they can match the speed of their competitor.

ATI apparently feels that the R9800 is enough to hold off the NV35 until their next product is ready.

Its too bad really that Nvidia isn't pushing them harder than they are right now.

[marcocom]

we up the core voltage on our CPUs for every clock speed. its probably equated with some kind of internal multiplier do-hicky to hit that latest core speed. if its tested stable ,then it is given life in this world.

but the DDR2 on the FX card is rock solid stable as well at 1ghz (ahem...is that fast? that certainly seems fast)

How about we both **** back our guns, walk real slow backwards out this bar and call it a night so as nobody needs to get hurt now...

The showdown at the 'Im OK if your OK Corral'

[jbirney]

Originally posted by RobHague

But the Geforce3 Ti was never called a Geforce 3.1 Ti was it? ;) They were higher a lower clocked solutions to fit prices ranges. The changes you speak of are nothing more than token changes to match NVIDIA, in short its to give them some PR BS to use when NVIDIA say they have a more programable platform. It would be interesting to downclock the 9800 and use the newer tweaked drivers on the 9700 (the soft 9800) and see how they perform....


The change from r9700 to the R9800 are more closely related to GF3 TI to the GF4. Going from GF3 to GF4 you got improved AA perfromance, extra AA mode (xS), memory controller tweaks and DX8.1 support (PS1.3). Thats was about it.

I am not saying that the R9800 was all that. I was hoping for more. But saying the refresh was like the GF3 -> GF3TI is wacked at best.

HardOCP alread did what you asked. Both sets using same non-tweaked drivers same clock speed:
http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NDQ4

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by jbirney
The change from r9700 to the R9800 are more closely related to GF3 TI to the GF4. Going from GF3 to GF4 you got improved AA perfromance, extra AA mode (xS), memory controller tweaks and DX8.1 support (PS1.3). Thats was about it.

4xS was available with RivaTuner for gf3 users :)

[Onde Pik]

Originally posted by RobHague

But the Geforce3 Ti was never called a Geforce 3.1 Ti was it? ;) They were higher a lower clocked solutions to fit prices ranges. The changes you speak of are nothing more than token changes to match NVIDIA, in short its to give them some PR BS to use when NVIDIA say they have a more programable platform. It would be interesting to downclock the 9800 and use the newer tweaked drivers on the 9700 (the soft 9800) and see how they perform....


Well actually they did, NVIDIA claimed that the TI series GF3 introduced Shadow Buffer and 3D Textures into the market. Even though the GF3 had had hardware support for it for a couple of month, and the RADEON for well over a year.

Besides, the "lets downclock the R9800 P and see how it fares" thing is futile. Are you gonna claim that it is the same chip if they perform EXACTLY alike? The improvements in the chip might very well have been made to make it reach higher clock rates, and thus invalidate any such claim.

The fact that you praise the TI version of the GF3 and bash the R9800P astounds me to no end.

[RobHague]

I praise the Ti because the different versions allowed me to be able to afford a Geforce3 based card (Ti200). They never passed it off as 'new' technology and the prices were very competative compared to the original Geforce3.

What im saying is that the 9800 and 9700 are one in the same apart from tiny token changes to the core and that ATi really did "fall asleep" on the job with this 'refresh'. The claim from NVIDIA that the TI series GF3 introduced Shadow Buffer and 3D Textures into the market might have just been because with the time of the Ti release the drivers then supported it. I dont know but i dont remember that particular claim at the time.

The thing is th 9800 should really be called the 9750 ;). Im also just showing another side to the argument that ATI can do no wrong right now. People bringing NVIDIA into the argument to validate what ATI have done btw is a bit naff. This isnt about NVIDIA at all, its about ATI and the possibility of their latest product not bing so 'new generation' as they claim. :)

It would be very interesting to see what the temps of the card was btw. Anyone done a comparison of that? Just wondering what kind of heat is being put into the case.

[PreservedSwine]

Hey im just posting the facts....

Well, more like posting selective facts, while leaving out many, many others in order to point to a false conclusion.

If you had not selectivley left out so many of the other facts, then HB wouldn't have to come in and clear things up....

[RobHague]

Selectively left out what facts may I ask? I took the parts of the article with the information on voltages which no other review has done. I then included the link to the FULL article for you to read. Oh and Hellbender come and cleared things up? Not really he just came in and said “its NVIDIA fan boy BS” and then said why the 9800 is so great. :rolleyes: All the 'features' that hellbender mentioned to 'clear things up' are all listed in the article to which there is a link too btw. ;)

Incidentally I posted this because it seems an interesting read, i posted the article link so you could read and make your own conclusion.

[Moose]

You can't talk about one video card company's upgrade decisions without considering what their competition is doing.

Right now ATI feels that this upgrade is enough to stave off the NV35 until the R400 is ready. ATI holds the current lead and the R9800 will further increase it until the NV35 shows up and gives it a run. A few months later the R400 will be out and ATI will again take the lead back from the NV35, assuming of course that the NV35 is actually faster than a R9800 at equal IQ settings.

Its all about keeping ahead of the competition, Nvidia has done alot of this in the past and ATI is doing it now.

Its really simple, if you don't feel that the R9800 is a big enough upgrade from a R9700 or a GFFX then don't buy it.

I have a R9700 right now and I see no reason to get a R9800 except maybe to get the AIW version if it ever comes out since I passed on the R9700 AIW.

[RobHague]

Im not interested in the 9800, ive just upgraded my graphics card. I was just browsing the web and saw this and thought id share it.

I thought the R400 was delayed till 2004 btw?

[Sazar]

his name is HellBINDER... not bender :)

is there a reason he continues to be called hellbender when his username is something else ?

[jbirney]

Originally posted by RobHague
I praise the Ti because the different versions allowed me to be able to afford a Geforce3 based card (Ti200). They never passed it off as 'new' technology and the prices were very competative compared to the original Geforce3.

Go back and read their PR:
http://www.nvidia.com/view.asp?IO=IO_20011001_367

Sounds like they said new tech to me :)

And the GF3 Ti 500 was priced at $400 at launched while the "regular" GF3 had fallen to aroun $300 or below..which is in the same boat as the R9700 and R9800 are...so once again I really dont see how this was/is any different.

Im also just showing another side to the argument that ATI can do no wrong right now. People bringing NVIDIA into the argument to validate what ATI have done btw is a bit naff. This isnt about NVIDIA at all, its about ATI and the possibility of their latest product not bing so 'new generation' as they claim. :)

Its not "naff". Why can nVidia get away with it but ATI can't? I am not saying that ATI could have done a better job. I think the could. But I don't really understand why certian people go out of their way (on both sides) to make a claim about one when usually the "other side" has done it before.

4xS was available with RivaTuner for gf3 users

Whoppsie my bad..what about the 3DFX tech that David K said they used to combine AA samples in the DAC? That sorta counts dosen't it?

[RobHague]

Hmm

We are delivering twice the performance at every price point. We are also taking a giant step to drive NVIDIA’s ‘GeForce Shader Technology’ aggressively into the mainstream. The combination of GeForce3, Xbox, and the GeForce Titanium Series will create an installed base of NVIDIA’s GeForce Shader Technology exceeding 5 million units by early next year.

The new GeForce3 Ti 500 and GeForce3 Ti 200 GPUs bring many new innovations to the consumer desktop PC, including support for shadow buffer technology and 3D textures. The use of shadow buffers¯hardware acceleration for creating realistic shadows¯has been field proven for such animated films as Columbia Pictures computer-generated (CG) motion picture Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within, but until today, the technology was only available on professional rendering equipment.

Im not sure where they are claiming the GF3 Ti to be a 'new product' with features not included in the GF3. They actually say up there "We are also taking a giant step to drive NVIDIA’s ‘GeForce Shader Technology’ aggressively into the mainstream." which fits with the reason i said the Ti series was good. :confused:

[John Reynolds]

Originally posted by RobHague
Im not interested in the 9800, ive just upgraded my graphics card.

And didn't you buy a FX board? If so, that kind of invalidates any opinion you might have on 3D graphics or the graphics market. IMO.

[RobHague]

Originally posted by John Reynolds
And didn't you buy a FX board? If so, that kind of invalidates any opinion you might have on 3D graphics or the graphics market. IMO.

Urr why, because when you buy a product you are automatically a fanboy? :rolleyes: What total BS.

IF you actually LOOK at the post i made i gave NO opinion on the results of the tests. Just presented the information exactley as given. *sigh*

[ChrisW]

Well, duhhhh. Of course it has a higher voltage. You are supposed to increase the voltage when you increase the clock rate.:rolleyes:
Maybe you guys should download one of Intel's technical documents. you will notice the voltage increases as the clock rate increases. I don't understand why this would be news to you or why you would try to make some sore of conspiracy theory about it.

[saturnotaku]

Originally posted by John Reynolds
And didn't you buy a FX board? If so, that kind of invalidates any opinion you might have on 3D graphics or the graphics market. IMO.

I just bought an FX so does that mean my opinion doesn't count either? I think that has just taken over the top spot as the most asinine statement I've ever read on a message board. Congratulations!

[RobHague]

Originally posted by ChrisW
I don't understand why this would be news to you or why you would try to make some sore of conspiracy theory about it.

Urm i didnt first off, everyone else did that replied. ;) I said and i quote

"Interesting..."

lol from that i aparentley said (maybe in code) that the 9800 was a 9700 and that it was all an ATI conspiracy to hide the truth - I also hid other facts to deceive people and sway them over to NVIDIA products.... oh and i also said that the R350 was created from stolen technology from the roswell incident and that ATI's founder was actually a little green dude from vulcan. ;)

If people think this is BS and not worth reading... why read it anyway? Really all i did was post a little article i saw and found Interesting. I didnt know ATI owners were so touchy "Oh no! God no! must not say or insinuate anything bad about almighty ATI!". :rolleyes: