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AirRaid
02-10-08, 06:18 PM
The answer is Evans & Sutherland.


http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost/main/art/dochead.gif


From the War Room to the Game Room
Martin Marietta, Utah Firm License Tank Simulators to Japanese

Author: John Mintz
Date: Jul 13, 1993


"We're not aware of anything this sophisticated out there," said Charles "Chip" Manor, Martin Marietta's spokesman. "The scenes will appear much more realistic than anything seen before this." Not so, said Marietta's main competitor in the Pentagon's combat simulator market, Salt Lake City-based Evans & Sutherland Computer. In March it announced a similar deal with Namco Ltd., another top Japanese maker of electronic amusement games, for a "next-generation" arcade game.

Its announcement followed by several months a decision by General Electric Co.'s aerospace division to sell simulator hardware to Sega. Since then, Martin Marietta bought GE's aerospace division, and is forging ahead with both Sega deals.

John Lenyo, marketing manager for the Martin Marietta simulator division in Florida, said Sega should have some of the non-tank prototypes in arcades by early 1994, and the tank game out by the end of next year.

link (http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost/access/72166803.html?did=72166803&FMT=ABS&FMTS=FT&date=Ju l+13%2C+1993&author=John+Mintz&desc=From+the+War+R oom+to+the+Game+Room%3B+Martin+Marietta%2C+Utah+Fi rm+License+Tank+Simulators+to+Japanese)

The bolded text refers to Evans & Sutherland, the company that (along with GE Aerospace), practically invented 3D graphics in the 1960s and much later helped design the texture-mapping, shading and overall graphics rendering technology for Namco's System 22 arcade hardware, first used to power the original Ridge Racer arcade game in 1993.


Gaming companies like Sega, Namco and Nintendo who introduced textured polygon graphics in arcade and console videogames in the early to mid 1990s, obviously did not invent their own 3D graphics technology, they needed partners. Companies like 3Dfx and Nvidia were just being founded at the time (1993-1994) and were not big yet. Sega partnered with General Electric Aerospace for the Model 1 board used in Virtua Racing. Later, after GE Aerospace was bought by Martin Marietta, Sega partnered with them to develop the Model 2 texture mapping board used in Daytona USA. Nintendo announced a partnership with Silicon Graphics to develop the chipset for Project Reality, what would become the Nintendo 64. And before PlayStation existed (which would form the basis of lowend 3D arcade boards, first used in Tekken) Namco needed a partner for impressive textured 3D graphics for arcade games to compete with SEGA. Namco had a much lower-profile partnership with Martin Marietta's main competitor (Sega's partner) in simulator 3D graphics technology, Evans & Sutherland.

I wish I knew more about the actual E&S technology in the System 22 board. There is nothing on the System16.com entry for System 22 hardware. All that's ever mentioned are the DSPs, but there has to be more to it than that. Like the actual rendering / rasterizing hardware. The only thing I've ever heard of is the supposed 'TR3' chip/technology. It is mentioned on the Ridge Racer arcade cab, and also on an in-game billboard in Rave Racer.
http://www.imagepup.com/up/MZ4Y_1202690050_system22tr3.bmp

System 22
TR3
Texture Mapping
Real-Time
Real-Visual
Rendering System

I believe TR3 is the equivalent of the GPU for System 22, or at least the texture/shading/rendering/rasterizing backend, like a Riva 128 or TNT accelerator.

I'm sure whoever knows about and worked on this TR3 technology from E&S is now working at Nvidia or ATI ;)

AirRaid
02-10-08, 08:56 PM
To further support the unconfirmed but highly probable TR3 chip/chipset, technology support from E&S in Namco's System 22 board:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030608044945/http://www.classicgaming.com/features/articles/arcadefantastic/index2.shtml

Namco themselves would go on to partner with Silicon Graphics, Evans & Sutherland and Texas Instruments €“ striving to create their own faster hardware.


some old usenet posts:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.video/msg/9dca536bcacec449?dmode=source

TOKYO (MARCH 26) UPI - Namco Ltd., a Japanese leading game maker, will jointly develop state-of-the-art computer games with Evans and Sutherland Computer Corp., a U.S. firm specializing in computer simulation systems, a Namco official said Friday.
Evans and Sutherland, a Utah-based company, has supplied more than 600 flight simulation systems to the U.S. military, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, defense industry and private airlines, the official said.
Namco plans to develop new computer games featuring three-demensional computer graphics by the U.S. maker, the official said.


http://groups-beta.google.com/group/fido.ger.konsolen/msg/d4798f0e802ebab5?dmode=source

Also eine 32Bit CG board, 32Bit 68s020 25MHz mit einem 320TI DSP, TR^3 polygon-generator, welche zusammen 400 MFLOPS


a post about Namco's game Ace Driver, it's more extensive use of gouraud shading and what provides that capability in the System 22 hardware, TR3!

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.video.advocacy/msg/dcbdf6f494490274?dmode=source


The main difference between Ace Driver and Ridge Racer is the addition
of comprehensive texture-mapping and Gouraud shading. Whereas Ridge
Racer only uses Gouraud shading in the pre-race sequence (the main
game relies on flat-shaded polygons), Ace Driver will employ it
throughout. The result will be greatly enhanced graphics: by providing
a graduated transition between polygons of different colours, Gouraud
shading is able to create almost perfectly smooth, realistic curves.

This makes high demands on hardware - Yu Suzuki told Edge in issue 9
that `if Daytona had used Gouraud shading throughout, it would have
been three to five times slower.' The bulk of power for Ace Driver is
provided by the 25Mhz 32bit Motorola 68020 CPU on Namco's System 22
board in tandem with Texas Instruments 320TI digital signal processors.
However realtime Gouraud shading needs dedicated hardware, which is
where TR3 - a high-performance texture-mapping and shading chip - comes
in.

And from Next Generation magazine issue #1
http://i.imgur.com/4NGmhTv.jpg

TR^3 on written on the Rave Racer arcade cab (highlighted by red boxes)
http://www.imagepup.com/up/9sTl_1202722406_rave_racer.jpg

JigenD
02-10-08, 09:07 PM
And who gave the Pentagon, and companies like Lockheed Martin this tech? Why extraterrestrials of course. Same with the semiconductor and transistor.

:p

99% of the basic formulas used in games today were invented a really long time ago. Gouraud shading comes from Henri Gouraud for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Gouraud_%28computer_scientist%29 in 1971.

I think most people know this kind of stuff, but oh well.

wysiwyg
02-11-08, 04:55 AM
what is the point of the thread?

looks like smap

nekrosoft13
02-11-08, 06:18 AM
wtf

Date: Jul 13, 1993

Feyy
02-11-08, 06:56 AM
:) :o :( :thumbdwn: :headexplode:

sytaylor
02-11-08, 07:26 AM
The Model 2 was always far superior to System 22 in terms of visuals. S22 had horrible jaggies and looked just like every other Playstation game of the time. On the other hand Model 2 always looked sharp, and whilst its poly count wasn't brilliant, it took until the Dreamcast before it could be ported correctly.

ViN86
02-11-08, 07:47 AM
kevpla1? :wtf:

Q
02-11-08, 07:50 AM
kevpla1? :wtf:

My thoughts exactly.

Madpistol
02-11-08, 08:12 AM
kevpla1? :wtf:

:headexplode:

Ninjaman09
02-11-08, 08:39 AM
I dunno but I'd totally do the CG chick on the billboard.

wysiwyg
02-11-08, 09:30 AM
THIS IS SUCH IRRELIVANT NEWS !

*1993*

NaitoSan
02-11-08, 09:53 AM
kevpla1? :wtf:
ha! i was thinking the same.

nemecb
02-11-08, 10:36 AM
Hmm, this guy predates kevpla though, doesn't he? How many more kevpla alts do we have around here that we didn't know about? Heck, I could be kevpla (err, wait...).:eek:

Monolyth
02-11-08, 10:47 AM
in order to be kevpla

you must first master the art of posting onto

a message board like yo

u are typing text to someone in a chat

client make sure you have zero punctuation zero grammatically

correct sentences and zero paragraphs

next condone suicide for losing x-box 360

privileges and make as many stupid topics as you can think of

all while technically still being banned

Q
02-11-08, 10:48 AM
in order to be kevpla

you must first master the art of posting onto

a message board like yo

u are typing text to someone in a chat

client make sure you have zero punctuation zero grammatically

correct sentences and zero paragraphs

next condone suicide for losing x-box 360

privileges and make as many stupid topics as you can think of

all while technically still being banned

rofl

nemecb
02-11-08, 11:09 AM
u r typing txt 2 some1 in a chat
Fixed.:D
client make sure you have zero punctuation zero grammatically
OMG! Kevpla is Yahtzee Croshaw!:headexplode:

Monolyth
02-11-08, 11:14 AM
OMG! Kevpla is Yahtzee Croshaw!:headexplode:

No, that's not true...THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!!!
http://starwarsdotcom.com/star_wars/gallery/characters/pics/luke/esb_luke73.jpg

jeffmd
02-11-08, 12:01 PM
blah blah blah some stupid comparison to PS1 blah blah blah

uhmm.. system 22 was more powerful then ps1 in every single way except one.. lack of real time lighting. it had 4 times the resolution, texture smoothing, and perspective correction. The ridge racer games as well as the time crysis games used system22. dont mistaken the many other games that came out after ridge racer as system 22, namco actually stuck playstation hardware, dubbed system 11 (12 for tekken3, video memory was added), into many of its arcade games. and yes they all looked like ass.

Compared to model 2 hardware, the capabilitys seem the same, but I would go ahead and say that system 22 could push more polygons. Daytona USA had popup on long stretches of plain featureless track segments. Ridgracer had very little popup (which might be a glitch rather then performance reasons) and had several city scape segments in its track.

AirRaid
02-11-08, 04:21 PM
The Model 2 was always far superior to System 22 in terms of visuals. S22 had horrible jaggies and looked just like every other Playstation game of the time. On the other hand Model 2 always looked sharp, and whilst its poly count wasn't brilliant, it took until the Dreamcast before it could be ported correctly.


I disagree with your post.

Both System 22 and MODEL 2 were significantly superior to PlayStation almost every way.

S22 was not horrible, it was the first fully texture-mapping 3D polygon hardware for arcades. S22 was not really like PlayStation at all. Compare arcade Ridge Racer and Rave Racer to any of the PlayStation1 RR games. The difference is night & day! Use the S22 emulator, VivaNonno, it'll run arcade RR1, RR2 and Rave Racer.
arcade: 640x480 @ 60fps, more polygons, actual z-buffered polygons, Perspective correct textures, higher texture res, higher color-depth textures. PS1 RR games: roughly 320 x 220 @ 30fps, low polygon count, no z-buffering, no perspective correction, low-res, low-color textures.
Granted a few PS1 games ran in higher resolution @ 60fps but at the expense of other things.


In practice the PS1 was about 1/4 to 1/8 as powerful as System 22. While Namco made few S22 games and therefore did not push S22 as hard as they did PS1, this resulted in some PS1 games looking as good as 1/2 as nice a S22 games, but still, PS1 could not compete with S22. Imagine if Namco had been making S22 games beyond 1995 when they had moved on to Super S22, S23, Super S23. PS1's most impressive efforts wouldn't stand up to newer software for S22 had development for it continued.

MODEL 2 was better in some ways, more polygons than S22 (300k vs 240k) some type of texture filtering, or the appearance of texture filtering. Yet both MODEL 2 and S22 had strengths and weakness compared to the other. Neither was completely superior to the other in every way. MODEL 2 had ZERO support for gouraud shading. S22 had hardware support for it and it shows in its games. S22 renders in higher resolution than MODEL 2's 496x384.

Overall I like MODEL 2 a little more than System 22 but I love both, and both kicked the sh|t out of Saturn, PS1, N64 and even Riva 128 despite the higher paper-specs of the Nvidia and other consumer PC 3D chips of the mid 1990s.

If you wanted to beat MODEL 2 (1993-1994) , S22 (1993), Super S22 (1995) with an Nvidia chip you'd need a TNT (1998). If you wanted to beat MODEL 3 (1996) you'd need an NV10/ GeForce256 (1999) at least. Arcade system specs were MUCH more realworld, much less bullsh|t and in practice were worth anywhere from 2x to 10x the paper-specs of early consumer 3D chips from Rendition, 3Dfx, PowerVR, Nvidia, ATI, etc.



uhmm.. system 22 was more powerful then ps1 in every single way except one.. lack of real time lighting. it had 4 times the resolution, texture smoothing, and perspective correction. The ridge racer games as well as the time crysis games used system22. dont mistaken the many other games that came out after ridge racer as system 22, namco actually stuck playstation hardware, dubbed system 11 (12 for tekken3, video memory was added), into many of its arcade games. and yes they all looked like ass.

Compared to model 2 hardware, the capabilitys seem the same, but I would go ahead and say that system 22 could push more polygons. Daytona USA had popup on long stretches of plain featureless track segments. Ridgracer had very little popup (which might be a glitch rather then performance reasons) and had several city scape segments in its track.

I agree with you overall. You're mostly right. The only thing I need to point out is that S22 had no texture smoothing/filtering, although it didn't matter too much because the textures were much higher res than anything PS1 could do. MODEL 2 had higher polygon count but S22 made up for that with gouraud shading. Early MODEL 2 games had popup because of a lack of RAM, but that was corrected in later revisions (Model 2 CRX A, B, C). S22 improved also with Super S22 with more polygon performance and RAM and possibly some additional effects.

AirRaid
02-11-08, 04:50 PM
BTW the main points of this thread are
(no matter how irrelevant it may seem to some of you)

1.) I'm looking for solid infomation on Evans & Sutherland's TR3 chip / chipset / technology used in Namco arcade boards starting with System 22 and going upto Super System 23 (plus the 2 or 3 boards inbetween).

1a.) I am NOT interested whatsoever in anything about the PlayStation1 based System11, System10 and System12 boards, they're nothing more than PS1's with more RAM and sometimes higher clocks.

2.) To see if anyone refutes the idea of E&S tech (TR3) in System 22. Some of the bigshots on Retrogames.com and System16.com said in the past there was no such thing. That all there is are DSPs. I think I've at least partly proved them wrong given the info, pics, links I have provided.

ViN86
02-11-08, 05:07 PM
1. who the hell is AirRaid?
2. who the hell is jeffmd?
3. why the hell do they want to argue about something from 1993? :wtf:

AirRaid
02-11-08, 05:16 PM
1. who the hell is AirRaid?
2. who the hell is jeffmd?
3. why the hell do they want to argue about something from 1993? :wtf:


Not here to argue really at all, just wanted info on the 3D graphics subsustem of Namco's S22 arcade board, but ironically it looks like I have got more info on it than anyone else, sigh. Was hoping there was someone here more knowledgable than I am on the subject.

Also, who cares that its from 1993, that was a great year, the year Nvidia was founded :P

ViN86
02-11-08, 08:00 PM
Not here to argue really at all, just wanted info on the 3D graphics subsustem of Namco's S22 arcade board, but ironically it looks like I have got more info on it than anyone else, sigh. Was hoping there was someone here more knowledgable than I am on the subject.

Also, who cares that its from 1993, that was a great year, the year Nvidia was founded :P
oh, well, fair enough :)

jeffmd
02-11-08, 10:59 PM
I like old hardware. ^^