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3DBrad
03-04-08, 02:50 AM
http://www.crymod.com/thread.php?threadid=20997 ;)

nekrosoft13
03-04-08, 07:28 AM
looks good

FastRedPonyCar
03-04-08, 08:26 AM
I wonder how drastic of a difference the final product will be compared to that.

The difference in level of detail between the promo shots of characters in UT3 and the cut scene characters vs the in game model detail is night and day. I hope this turns out well and I hope that they fully utilize the power of the U3 engine.

Section-9
03-04-08, 08:38 AM
Nice! thx for info, I had no idea about this UT3 mod in the works. (nana2)

3DBrad
03-04-08, 11:21 AM
Sure thing, more information will be released a little later. ;)

Buenamos
03-04-08, 11:24 AM
I wonder how drastic of a difference the final product will be compared to that.

The difference in level of detail between the promo shots of characters in UT3 and the cut scene characters vs the in game model detail is night and day. I hope this turns out well and I hope that they fully utilize the power of the U3 engine.

That head shot was actually taken inside of Zbrush rather than inside of the game engine. You can tell by the red circles in the first shot. Lol, they don't even know how to take proper renders.

It's a pretty decent head model though.

JigenD
03-04-08, 11:29 AM
I wonder how drastic of a difference the final product will be compared to that.

The difference in level of detail between the promo shots of characters in UT3 and the cut scene characters vs the in game model detail is night and day. I hope this turns out well and I hope that they fully utilize the power of the U3 engine.

Basically all these companies make normal maps from high resolution models, that's how things are done.

It's actually nice to see a mod taking the same technique.

FastRedPonyCar
03-04-08, 11:32 AM
Basically all these companies make normal maps from high resolution models, that's how things are done.

It's actually nice to see a mod taking the same technique.

I want these high res models in the mod! :D

Buenamos
03-04-08, 11:53 AM
I want these high res models in the mod! :D

Lol. Once we're able to push 2 million polys just for a single character not to mention all of the environment and such, that'll be the day.

JigenD
03-04-08, 12:01 PM
Lol. Once we're able to push 2 million polys just for a single character not to mention all of the environment and such, that'll be the day.

Yep that's basically it. Technically we could do a single character like this or two, but we couldn't have anything more in the 'game'. Games can render up to 100 million polygons per second (dead rising on 360 for example) if there isn't too many effects (because lots of effects basically require the geometry to be transformed extra times).

FastRedPonyCar
03-04-08, 12:11 PM
what poly count does the average crysis scene sport?

JigenD
03-04-08, 12:34 PM
what poly count does the average crysis scene sport?

Well I hear the characters in actual gameplay are 80k, but they're going to have like 8 layers of textures or something, so that's 80k x 8, and that's just for characters. Cutscene chars are 120k and probably even more layers.

The only reason I know the Dead Rising counts is because Capcom released a ton of tech stuff about it.

Here's some quotes : "In Lost Planet, each character is 10-20K polys. A VS robot is 30-40K polys. A background is about 500K. With shadows and other hidden rendering cost, it's about 3 million polys per frame."

[edit : btw, typically polygonal costs don't count when the geometry has to be transformed more than once, I find that odd, but I've asked about it.]

JigenD
03-04-08, 12:40 PM
Found a list I compiled from some sources :

Gears of War (360)
Wretch - 10,000 polygons with diffuse, specular and normal maps
Boomer - 11,000 polygons with diffuse, specular and normal maps
Marcus - 15,000 polygons with diffuse, specular and normal maps

Halflife 2
Alyx Vance - 8323 polygons
Barney - 5922 polygons
Combine Soldier - 4682 polygons
Classic Headcrab - 1690 polygons
SMG - 2854 polygons (with arms)
Pistol - 2268 polygons (with arms)

Vitua Fighter 5
Character - ~40k with diffuse, specular and normal maps
Background - 100K - 300K polygons

Project Gotham Racing 3
Cars - 80K-100K polygons (interior + exterior)

Gran Turismo 5: Prologue
Cars - 200K polygons each (interior + exterior) (also TONS of layers going on)

Midnight Club LA
Cars - 100K polygons each (interior + exterior) (probably the most layers, really nice shaders)

Lair
Main dragon plus its rider - 150K polygons
16x16KM scene - 134M polygons (streamed into memory, not loaded at run time)

JigenD
03-04-08, 12:45 PM
Found this : http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=43975

I'd say in this case they're probably mostly right about the counts ;)

highlights :

Crysis, PC, 2007
Nano-suit character - 67,000 polygons (uncertain whether it's an in-game model or not)*
Characters' heads - ~2500-3000 polygons
Characters' bodies - ~5000 polygons

Uncharted: Drake's Fortune, PS3, 2007
Main characters - ~20,000-30,000 polygons
Drake - ~30,000 polygons
Pirates - ~12,000-15,000 polygons

Mass Effect, X360, 2007
Sheppard + armor + weapons - ~20,000-25,000 polygons

Project Gotham Racing 3, X360, 2005
Cars - 80,000-100,000 polygons (interior + exterior), damages add between 10,000 and 20,000 more polygons per car
Brooklyn Bridge - 600,000 polygons (LOD might be included)
Manhattan Bridge - 1 million polygons (LOD might be included)

nemecb
03-04-08, 01:16 PM
Well I hear the characters in actual gameplay are 80k, but they're going to have like 8 layers of textures or something, so that's 80k x 8, and that's just for characters.
The layers of textures are irrelevant to the poly count, the bulk of the texture work is done in the pixel shader so if you're vertex limited (something few games are these days) you can add as many layers of textures as you want (within hardware limits of course) and not affect performance. Unfortunately texture lookups are relatively expensive compared to transforming geometry so chances are that those 8 textures are bringing down the framerate much more than the 80k polys. Since that performance difference is only expected to increase (memory bandwidth is increasing much more slowly than the speed of mathematical operations), we may very well see extremely high poly characters without current normal mapping tricks at some point. A similar thing has happened with normalizing vectors on a video card - it used to be faster to have a 3-dimensional normalization texture and do a lookup into that, but now it's preferred to just use the standard normalize function.

[edit : btw, typically polygonal costs don't count when the geometry has to be transformed more than once, I find that odd, but I've asked about it.]
This is probably due to caching, so it's not true in general, but if the engine is written to take advantage of the cache and uses things like geometry instancing then repeated transformations of the same geometry can be essentially free.

3DBrad
03-04-08, 01:49 PM
That head shot was actually taken inside of Zbrush rather than inside of the game engine. You can tell by the red circles in the first shot. Lol, they don't even know how to take proper renders.

It's a pretty decent head model though.

Don't be so naiive, about every professional artist takes screencaps in Zbrush with different 2.5D rendering.

AND NO GAME NOR MACHINE can handle 100 million polygons, as most people would run out of RAM at around 2-4 million polygons, not to mention running out of vram long before that if characters had tons of material IDs.

Sure, you can have normal mapped objects which were *baked* from millions of polygons, but your Crysis main chracter, for example, is about 9,000tris (or 4500 polygons).

JigenD
03-04-08, 02:29 PM
The layers of textures are irrelevant to the poly count, the bulk of the texture work is done in the pixel shader so if you're vertex limited (something few games are these days) you can add as many layers of textures as you want (within hardware limits of course) and not affect performance. Unfortunately texture lookups are relatively expensive compared to transforming geometry so chances are that those 8 textures are bringing down the framerate much more than the 80k polys. Since that performance difference is only expected to increase (memory bandwidth is increasing much more slowly than the speed of mathematical operations), we may very well see extremely high poly characters without current normal mapping tricks at some point. A similar thing has happened with normalizing vectors on a video card - it used to be faster to have a 3-dimensional normalization texture and do a lookup into that, but now it's preferred to just use the standard normalize function.


This is probably due to caching, so it's not true in general, but if the engine is written to take advantage of the cache and uses things like geometry instancing then repeated transformations of the same geometry can be essentially free.

While games may not be vertex limited, because they're going to avoid those limits by not having multi million polygon models, how do the pixel shaders allow textures to be applied, say 8 times, without having to do stuff like make sure the textures are perspective correct? Or are you just saying the shaders will handle the transformation?

Why DON'T they just dump normal maps if what you say is true? If you're going to save memory bandwidth and have slightly more detail because of the real polygonal representation of details, why not go that way now?

Geometry instancing is very useful in certain cases, but obvious it's not used in every single game let along every part of a game. What I was trying to say about polygonal counts 'not counting' was just that when a developer gives out the specs they don't include all handling of the model by the engine, just what the raw assets are.

It would help me if you did explain the texturing though, I admit I don't fully understand why it's not counted.

To Spoudazo, we're talking polygons per second, not even polygons per frame or polygons per model. The highest a game typically does now is about 100 million polygons a second.

The Crysis models are apparently about 60k polygons as well, not 9000 tris (which I believe typically are still called polygons, because not much graphics hardware renders 4 sided polygons anymore).

3DBrad
03-04-08, 04:45 PM
JigenD, you apparently have no idea what you're talking about.

I'm on one of the mod teams that was given the pre-SDK for Crysis, and I work with Crytek's assets to ensure our models are in line with theirs, and that we're using CryEngine 2 as efficiently as possible.

GPUs render triangles, not quads (i.e.-polygons) so in the game world you usually refer to the total as tris.
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg239/techrelated/multiplemesh.jpg

Some of the character models have more than others, but the "nano-suit" guy you play as in the multiplayer has around 9000 tris.

In Crysis, you're usually using perhaps 3 textures sheets for the whole player model.

In Unreal Engine 3 it's somewhat similar as with Crysis, however, with UE3, you shouldn't have several Material IDs on a single object, as it multiplies the performance cost.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u292/HowdyRanger/Crysismodel3dxripper.jpg

Note: None of the information or pictures above are related to the SDK, so it does not breach the NDA I signed. ;)

JigenD
03-04-08, 05:35 PM
JigenD, you apparently have no idea what you're talking about.

I'm on one of the mod teams that was given the pre-SDK for Crysis, and I work with Crytek's assets to ensure our models are in line with theirs, and that we're using CryEngine 2 as efficiently as possible.

GPUs render triangles, not quads (i.e.-polygons) so in the game world you usually refer to the total as tris.
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg239/techrelated/multiplemesh.jpg

Some of the character models have more than others, but the "nano-suit" guy you play as in the multiplayer has around 9000 tris.

In Crysis, you're usually using perhaps 3 textures sheets for the whole player model.

In Unreal Engine 3 it's somewhat similar as with Crysis, however, with UE3, you shouldn't have several Material IDs on a single object, as it multiplies the performance cost.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u292/HowdyRanger/Crysismodel3dxripper.jpg

Note: None of the information or pictures above are related to the SDK, so it does not breach the NDA I signed. ;)

You mind if I post that on Beyond3d then? That's some pretty hot stuff with the polycounts, and it would counter all the stuff they've posted there about the counts being MUCH higher (including people using the editor to count polys and such.

BTW, why did you bring up "9,000tris (or 4500 polygons)." It'd be 9000 polygons, 4500 quads, some old arcade units, like Daytona USA DO render quads.

3DBrad
03-04-08, 06:10 PM
One polygon = 2 tris

When people say a mesh is 3000 polygons, they mean 6000 tris, for example.

But sure, no problem. ;)

JigenD
03-04-08, 06:30 PM
One polygon = 2 tris

When people say a mesh is 3000 polygons, they mean 6000 tris, for example.

But sure, no problem. ;)

Well technically I believe a polygon can be a 3 sided shape, but I see what you're saying about mesh polycount.

As far as the Beyond3d forum, if you look at that post I made before (you don't have to) you can see they weren't sure if the 67k or whatever was a cutscene model, but it seems so.

Buenamos
03-04-08, 06:31 PM
Don't be so naiive, about every professional artist takes screencaps in Zbrush with different 2.5D rendering.

Ummmm, I think you missed the point of my message. I was simply stating that it looks like they used printscreen to save the pics rather than actually rendering it out into a jpeg image for instance. When you do the actual render it won't have any cross-hairs in it.

And of course they would show off their material in Zbrush, unless they wanted to include some mental ray lighting for ****s and giggles.

AND NO GAME NOR MACHINE can handle 100 million polygons, as most people would run out of RAM at around 2-4 million polygons, not to mention running out of vram long before that if characters had tons of material IDs.

Sure, you can have normal mapped objects which were *baked* from millions of polygons, but your Crysis main chracter, for example, is about 9,000tris (or 4500 polygons).

And this should be forwarded to someone else who actually said that a machine could handle it. Cause i didn't. Hence my later statement:

Lol. Once we're able to push 2 million polys just for a single character not to mention all of the environment and such, that'll be the day.

3DBrad
03-04-08, 06:35 PM
Ummmm, I think you missed the point of my message. I was simply stating that it looks like they used printscreen to save the pics rather than actually rendering it out into a jpeg image for instance. When you do the actual render it won't have any cross-hairs in it.

And of course they would show off their material in Zbrush, unless they wanted to include some mental ray lighting for ****s and giggles.



And this should be forwarded to someone else who actually said that a machine could handle it. Cause i didn't. Hence my later statement:

I didn't say you said that about machines.

But you don't "render" a scene in Zbrush like you would in Max, Maya, LW, etc. and it's very common for people to post screencaps with the Zbrush with the reticule in the picture.

Buenamos
03-04-08, 06:57 PM
I didn't say you said that about machines.

But you don't "render" a scene in Zbrush like you would in Max, Maya, LW, etc. and it's very common for people to post screencaps with the Zbrush with the reticule in the picture.

True, it's not quite the same render process. I guess I rarely see the reticule in the pic as I mainly visit the Zbrushcentral forums and most of those guys are pretty damn professional. ha

Also, do you work in Zbrush at all cause I'm currently having an issue with one of my models? I've built the rig ground up in Zbrush with Zspheres rather than building a base mesh in maya or max. Now, whenever I try to texture it or export displacement maps, they're all screwed up. And I've followed a few different video tutorials on how to do it and they never seem to have the problem. I'm guessing something is messed up with my UV's but I've only been working in Zbrush since December so it's not like a have a huge amount of experience.

3DBrad
03-04-08, 07:16 PM
There are a few things,

(1) When generating textures or applying them in Zbrush, you'll need to flip them (there's an option up in the toolbar, depending on which version you're using) but this probably isn't the issue but it could bei.

(2) If you're just using Zbrush, it's probably auto-unwrapping the model. But either way, I'd suggest unwrapping it in a full 3d program if possible.

How many polygons does the low-poly version have compared to the high-polygon version? :)