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arise
03-23-08, 07:01 AM
Well well, almost 3 years since my last visit here :)
Good to see it's still alive and kicking!

I finally sold my old and trust P4P800 and that goes along with its AGP/DDR features.
Moved to a Asus P5K Pro, E8200, 4GB DDR2-800, a BFG 8800GT OC and Vista x64 SP1.

The speed is amazing, i have absolutely no issues with SP1, it certainly "feels" more responsive and faster than SP0.

Anyway, installed 169.25 WHQL from nvidia.com and this is where my issues start:

- cannot force 75Hz on ALL resolutions available (i have a HP W2207 22")
- managed to get 75Hz on 1024x768 and 1280x1024 ONLY!
- cannot use or force 75Hz on all other (16:9, 16:10) resolutions.

I know my monitor can take 1680x1050 @ 75Hz, it worked in XP SP2 before. But somehow all other "in between 1280x1024 and 1680x1050" resolutions cannot use 75Hz.

My monitor also seems to be strange, when using Rivatuner it says "maximum resolution reported by driver doesn't match with EDID. Do you want to ignore the max res. stored in EDID?".

I enabled both old and new CPs in the registry, as well as enablind the custom resolutions in the old CP. I cannot add 1680x1050 @ 75Hz from there! As a matter of fact, nothing using 75Hz can be added.

Any idea how i can enable forced 75Hz on all resolutions from 1024x768 to 1680x1050 (especially WS ones)

Thanks!

=========
Edit: tried adding 1152x720 @ 75Hz in old CP -> cannot add custom resolution
Edit2: added 1152x720 @ 75Hz in Rivatuner, rebooted -> refresh rate is still reported as max 60Hz
Edit3: installed 169.44 Betas
Edit4: after playing with HP's My Monitor software, now i can't upgrade the monitor driver ?! It says no permission, contact your manufacturer.

Dirthead
03-23-08, 09:12 PM
Same here. I used to be able to run at 75Hz but now i cant and im running the 169.44 same issue.

running 22 inch wide screen as well

ikjadoon
03-23-08, 10:00 PM
Have you guys tried the 174's that were for the 9600GT (with modded inf, of course)? I hear those allowed custom resolutions, which should include adjustment for the refresh rate?

~Ibrahim~

arise
03-23-08, 11:40 PM
no, haven't tried the 174.xx, i heard they have lower overall fps than the 169.xx for the 8xxx series. What's the last 169.xx build that supports custom resolutions?

doddsy
03-24-08, 05:47 AM
why do you want to force 75hz. you're not going to notice any difference at all from the native 60hz?

arise
03-24-08, 12:58 PM
right, on desktop you don't notice 60Hz or 75Hz, although some people would argue 75Hz feels more responsive, with less mouse lag. For my native resolution of 1680x1050 i run at 60Hz, no doubt.

The part that I am interested in, as everyone here, is the 3D/Gaming side.
As LCD users we are almost all using Vsync in games. Meaning FPS is capped at either 60 or 75 Fps, depending on resolution.

In demanding games (see Crysis) of course we don't care if we cap at 60 or 75Hz, because with most configurations we're not even close to an average FPS of 60 or 75. But in other, "older" shooter games, 75Hz DOES feel and move better than 60.

So for desktop, 1680x1050 @ 60Hz is fine.
For CS:S, for example, i am forced with 75Hz only in 1024x768 and 1280x1024. The other resolutions, mostly which are 16:9 or 16:10 cannot be forced to use 75Hz.

For me right now, playing 1280x1024 feels better with 75Hz, but looks distorted (vertically downstretched), which could be another issue to be discussed. That's why I want to have a custom 16:10 resolution, like 1152x720 with 75Hz.

Right now, this is not possible on Vista with 169.25 and 169.44

Battlefield 2 allows you to set a gfx mode along with refresh rate, but guess what? Only the resolutions that are allowed in the control panel (again, 1024 and 1280) have the 75Hz option.
Just tried running CS 1.6 -> vsync OFF and using 1152x720 @ 60Hz, max_fps 100...i get 100fps indeed but mouse movement feels laggy and there is tearing...not good is it? :)

BronzeGod
03-24-08, 03:31 PM
why do you want to force 75hz. you're not going to notice any difference at all from the native 60hz?

Why are there 120hz LCD TVs?

Obviously because it refreshes the pixels faster to give you a more fluid image. If you are running a low response LCD, you will benefit from a heightened refresh beyond 60hz. If you stick at 60hz there will be ghosting and screen lag. At 75hz it is as smooth as butter.

I run a Samsung 226BW with a 2ms response. At 60hz it is MISERABLE. When I force 77hz, its like i'm in total heaven.

diamonddave
03-24-08, 04:51 PM
I just forced 75HZ on my Acer 22". THANK YOU SO FREAKING MUCH!!! No more headaches when gaming!!!!! There is a difference between 60 and 75, I'm using DVI and have been getting headaches from the jerkiness when gaming.

Using 174.70.

BronzeGod
03-24-08, 05:59 PM
I just forced 75HZ on my Acer 22". THANK YOU SO FREAKING MUCH!!! No more headaches when gaming!!!!! There is a difference between 60 and 75, I'm using DVI and have been getting headaches from the jerkiness when gaming.

Using 174.70.

Are you using a modded .inf driver or straight from nvidia?

ikjadoon
03-24-08, 09:07 PM
If your monitor doesn't support it, is it safe to "force" it?

~Ibrahim~

Dirthead
03-24-08, 10:21 PM
my problem is that while i was on xp my monitor i was able to have it on 75hz just fine on a 6800GT card. Now since i upgraded to vista and a 8800 card it seems as only 60Hz works.

arise
03-24-08, 11:47 PM
do you guys have bad EDID info when trying to go into Rivatuner's refresh rate override?
For me it asks whether to ignore it. If i click YES, it fills out the right values for max supported res (1680x1050).

So it seems 174.70 has custom resolutions, can anyone else confirm it works in Vista?

arise
03-25-08, 03:31 PM
ok i am using 174.70 inf-ed for vista x64.
i can create custom resolutions and refresh rates!

i got 1152x720 @ 75 // 1280x800 @ 75 // 1440x900 @ 75

vsync enabled, but they don't stick in OGL/D3D games :( in 2D (desktop) they run ok though
can't find any registry key to enable "refresh rate override" in the new CP either.

conclusion: 174.70 -> vsync is working, custom resolutions & refresh rates work on desktop but not in games
as before, they stick only for 1024 and 1280 resolutions (which they look like crap on a 16:10 native 22")

any ideas anyone?

@bronzegod: how did you make 75Hz stick in 3D? what resolutions are you running at 75hz?

arise
03-26-08, 02:35 PM
ok, botomline: tried rivatuner, refreshlock and reforce...none works.
75Hz with custom resolutions only work in 2D. OpenGL and DX modes revert back to 60Hz.

does anyone have a success story?

arise
03-27-08, 01:54 PM
is this then the true reason for our problems?

INF Support for Restricted Timings
This driver version does not support the use of Restricted Timing settings (R&T
strings) in the INF to control mode validation and/or mode setting for custom
mode/adapter/monitor combinations. This capability is planned for a later driver
release.

// from the 174.74 Beta release notes PDF

BronzeGod
03-27-08, 02:02 PM
ok i am using 174.70 inf-ed for vista x64.
i can create custom resolutions and refresh rates!

i got 1152x720 @ 75 // 1280x800 @ 75 // 1440x900 @ 75

vsync enabled, but they don't stick in OGL/D3D games :( in 2D (desktop) they run ok though
can't find any registry key to enable "refresh rate override" in the new CP either.

conclusion: 174.70 -> vsync is working, custom resolutions & refresh rates work on desktop but not in games
as before, they stick only for 1024 and 1280 resolutions (which they look like crap on a 16:10 native 22")

any ideas anyone?

@bronzegod: how did you make 75Hz stick in 3D? what resolutions are you running at 75hz?

I'm running XP x64 thats how lol. Vista doesn't like allowing forced refresh. Also I'm running at 77hz because I tested to see the highest refresh my monitor wouldn't garble up on.

22inch Samsung 226BW 1680x1050@77hz

arise
03-27-08, 02:28 PM
ah! that explains it :)

nice monitor you have there, i was myself undecided between the 226BW and the w2207 some time ago...the glossy deep blacks of the HP won me over :)

If i come to think about it, new DX10 games like World in conflict allow you to set the refreshrate in-game...and it works....

BronzeGod
03-27-08, 02:35 PM
Yea, some of them need to read it from your .inf to have the menu of working refreshes there though. I wish they would fix that, its the only reason i'm not using Vista. I HATE 60hz with a passion.

lukahafner
04-09-08, 07:46 AM
hi.
how can i call back cusztom timings in newer versions like 174.xx?
thanks
bye, Luke

arise
04-11-08, 12:30 PM
ok did some more research and it seems some people have fixed this either by swapping the "resolutions" portion in the nv4disp.inf from an older driver OR editing the .inf itself.

here are the sources:
http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=257092
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=37318

Did anyone try this yet?

I don't really understand the structure of the new "HKR,, NV_Modes, %REG_MULTI_SZ%" block in the INF, so im a bit wary of testing w/o some knowledge.

Seems the key is to edit the monitor INF as well as the nv4disp.inf, reinstalling monitor/gfx driver and presenting the OS with a "limited" set of refreshrates -> the ones we want.

There seems to be a relation between 16:10 modes and 60Hz by default from the drivers, as they are not available on any CRT afaik, therefore present only on LCDs -> ergo "go default, go safe, go 60Hz"

Here is the block from the 174.74 .inf, is anyone skilled enough here to point out what needs to be changed/added in order to force 75Hz for 16:10 resolutions?

======================================
HKR,, NV_Modes, %REG_MULTI_SZ%, "{*}S 720x480 720x576=1;SHV 1680x1050 2048x1536x32=1;1440x900 1920x1200x32 1920x1440x8,16=1D;640x480 800x600 1024x768 1280x768 1280x1024 1600x900 1600x1200 1920x1200x8,16=3D;1920x1440x32=9;1920x1080=C01E;20 48x1536x8,16=D;{400-42F,600-6E4}SHV 1440x900x8,16=3C0;1440x900x32=40;{6E2,6E4}S 1920x1200x32 1920x1440x8,16 2048x1536x8,16=20;800x480 1280x720x64=3D;800x600 1024x768 1280x720 1280x800 1280x960 1280x1024 1360x768 1600x1200 1920x1154 1920x1200=8032;960x1200x64=803D;"

HKR,, NV_Modes, %REG_SZ_APPEND%, "SH 960x1200=803D;HV 1440x900x64=3F;{191-19E,400-42F,600-6E4}S 720x480x64 720x576x64 1152x864x64 1680x1050x64=1;1920x1440x64 2048x1536x64=1F;640x480x64 800x600x64 848x480x64 960x600x64=1FFF;1920x1200x64=2;1024x768x64 1280x768x64 1280x800x64 1280x960x64 1280x1024x64 1360x768x64 1600x900x64 1600x1200x64=3D;1440x900x64=3F;720x576x64=8032;192 0x1080x64=C01E;{191-19E,400-42F,600-7E5}SHV 1440x900=20;{40-6E4}S 720x576=8032;SHV 1152x864=1;1280x800 1280x960 1360x768=3D;"

HKR,, NV_Modes, %REG_SZ_APPEND%, "{40-16A,210-6E4}SHV 2048x1536x8,16=12;1920x1440x32=16;2048x1536x32=1E; 1920x1080x32=1F;640x480 800x600 1024x768x8,16=1FC2;848x480 960x600=1FFF;1440x900 1600x1200x32 1920x1200 1920x1440x8,16=2;1280x768x32 1280x800x32 1280x960x32 1280x1024x32 1360x768x32 1600x900x8,16=3C2;1600x1024x32 1920x1080x8,16=3F;1280x720x32=3FF;1600x900x32 1600x1200x8,16=42;1280x768x8,16 1280x800x8,16 1280x960x8,16 1280x1024x8,16 1360x768x8,16=7C2;1600x1024x8,16=7F;1152x864x32=7F E;1280x720x8,16=7FF;"

HKR,, NV_Modes, %REG_SZ_APPEND%, "1024x768x32=FC2;1152x864x8,16=FFE;"

==========================================

arise
04-29-08, 03:27 PM
Ok, narrowed it down even more.
The key seems to be the EDID data. Here is mine, and look why i simply cannot force 75Hz on anything except 3 4:3 resolutions. The real reason is standards - 4:3 are for backwards compatibility to the CRT world, while all 16:9 and 16:10 modes are exclusively met on LCD/Plasmas, which are defined to run at 60Hz.

Standard timings supported
640 x 480 at 60Hz - IBM VGA
640 x 480 at 75Hz - VESA
720 x 400 at 70Hz - IBM VGA
800 x 600 at 60Hz - VESA
800 x 600 at 75Hz - VESA
832 x 624 at 75Hz - Mac II
1024 x 768 at 60Hz - VESA
1024 x 768 at 75Hz - VESA
1024 x 768 at 85Hz - VESA
1152 x 870 at 75Hz - Mac II
1152 x 1152 at 60Hz - VESA
1280 x 960 at 60Hz - VESA
1280 x 1024 at 75Hz - VESA
1440 x 1440 at 60Hz - VESA
1600 x 1600 at 60Hz - VESA
1680 x 1050 at 60Hz - HP
1680 x 1680 at 60Hz - VESA

Raw EDID base
00: 00 FF FF FF FF FF FF 00 22 F0 A9 26 01 01 01 01
10: 15 11 01 03 80 2F 1E 78 EE B5 35 A5 56 4A 9A 25
20: 10 50 54 A5 6B 90 71 00 81 40 95 00 A9 00 B3 00
30: 01 01 01 01 01 01 21 39 90 30 62 1A 27 40 68 B0
40: 36 00 D9 28 11 00 00 1C 00 00 00 FD 00 30 4C 18
50: 52 10 00 0A 20 20 20 20 20 20 00 00 00 FC 00 48
60: 50 20 77 32 32 30 37 0A 20 20 20 20 00 00 00 FF
70: 00 43 5A 44 37 32 31 30 34 50 4C 0A 20 20 00 DF

I need to somehow edit the EDID to inject a couple of modes i need.
Anyone have a clue how to do this? :)

Edit - it seems that Vista is much more restrictive in allowing modes not listed in the EDID than XP.

arise
05-01-08, 03:16 AM
OK, found some more clues:

"All modern monitors can provide EDID data to the video card which describes the capabilities of the monitor. When Windows says that a "plug and play monitor" is installed, it means that it is using the EDID data's description of the monitor. But older monitors can't provide EDID. In that case, Windows depends on the monitor's .INF file for basic info about what the monitor can do. If the video card fails to get the EDID data from the monitor then Windows may (I'm not 100% sure) fall back on the .INF file which is currently selected"

http://www.playtool.com/pages/dvitrouble/dvitrouble.html

Berek
03-09-09, 04:57 PM
I'm a bit new at this, I have the 226bw and the same problem, stuck at 60hz. can you give me the method you used to change the vista x64 refresh rate settings. I'd appreciate it.

thanks,
berek



Why are there 120hz LCD TVs?

Obviously because it refreshes the pixels faster to give you a more fluid image. If you are running a low response LCD, you will benefit from a heightened refresh beyond 60hz. If you stick at 60hz there will be ghosting and screen lag. At 75hz it is as smooth as butter.

I run a Samsung 226BW with a 2ms response. At 60hz it is MISERABLE. When I force 77hz, its like i'm in total heaven.

DisposableHero
03-14-09, 09:23 PM
I'm a bit new at this, I have the 226bw and the same problem, stuck at 60hz. can you give me the method you used to change the vista x64 refresh rate settings. I'd appreciate it.

thanks,
berek

I also would like to know.

mailman2
03-14-09, 09:28 PM
He didnt, he was still using XP64 as it wasnt possible under Vista x64