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Revs
03-31-08, 10:05 AM
It's been about a year since the first DX10 titles started trickling out, but is there any benefits to DX10? All current DX10 games will run in DX9, have just about the same graphics and in most cases run faster.

I, like many others, rushed out to get the latest and greatest graphics card with the promise of up to 2x GPU efficiency with DX10 titles. Disappointed doesn't quite say it, really :(

Here we are, a year on, and I still see very little gain/benefit to DX10. At best, games run about the same speed and have one or two slightly noticable extra features.

Just wanted to get peoples opinions and views on the situation, now most of us have had plenty of experience with it. Are we seeing it's full potential, and if not, will we ever? Will DX10 only games see any more potential realised?

nekrosoft13
03-31-08, 10:31 AM
weird, i bought my card because it was faster from all perspective, dx10 was just bonus.

dx10 is faster when is uses the same settings as dx9, if you take dx10 and keep adding additional features/iq options it will get slower.

good example is Lost Planet, compare dx9 to dx10 with excact same things, dx10 will be a bit faster. then take dx10 and turn on all the extra stuff, it will get slower.

its not hard to figure out.

and when, where did they promise twice the performane in dx10?

Tr1cK
03-31-08, 10:33 AM
You won't see DX10 only games for a long time, if ever. DX10 only would cut off too many consumers that would be a huge source of revenue for developers. Also, developing 2 code paths simultaneously for DX9 and DX10 wouldn't be cost effective either. DX10 only might have a chance if the game being developed is truly 'next gen'. Then again, we have had these 'next gen' titles coming out for the past year and nobody has went DX10 only because, as I said above, they would be killing their revenue.

Revs
03-31-08, 10:37 AM
and when, where did they promise twice the performane in dx10?

I remember reading all sorts of things before the G80 came out about how the unified architecture was far more efficient and DX10 would render like for like graphics far faster. I'll see if I can find a link.

LordJuanlo
03-31-08, 10:40 AM
Check this (http://www.hothardware.com/printarticle.aspx?articleid=1031) interesting article from HotHardware, it was written on october 2007 but it pretty much applies today.

I think the only game that performs better on DX10 with identical graphics settings is Lost Planet, I wish all DX10 games offered at least that option. Assassin's Creed is supposed to offer better performance too at identical graphical settings.

http://www.hothardware.com/articleimages/Item1031/State-Of-DX10_LP+_1920.png

And that game offers a couple of nice features like Fur Shader, that effect looks really cool.

http://www.hothardware.com/articleimages/Item1031/small_StateOfDX10_LP_Fur2.jpg

You also have a nice effect of volumetric lights & clouds in World if Conflict

http://www.hothardware.com/articleimages/Item1031/small_StateOfDX10_WiC_Lite1.jpg http://www.hothardware.com/articleimages/Item1031/small_StateOfDX10_WiC_Lite2.jpg

Bioshock offered some subtle graphical enhancements, like better water and particle effects

http://www.hothardware.com/articleimages/Item1031/small_StateOfDX10_BS_Rip.jpg http://www.hothardware.com/articleimages/Item1031/small_StateOfDX10_BS_SoftP1.jpg

Overall I would say I'm less than impressed with current state of DX10. Very few games take advantage of it, and most games run worse with the same level of detail. But some games like Lost Planet and Assassin's Creed show real framerate improvements (a little bird told me about this one), so I think it's a matter of time that we start to see benefits. The API is there and some games have proved it works, but sadly it's taking much more that we all wished that most developers make good use of it.

Revs
03-31-08, 10:48 AM
I remember reading all sorts of things before the G80 came out about how the unified architecture was far more efficient and DX10 would render like for like graphics far faster. I'll see if I can find a link.

http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/10/18/the_new_graphics/

...the system will be able to render objects faster and more efficiently. This is a good thing, as games will be able to incorporate this feature to give you more frames per second...

nekrosoft13
03-31-08, 10:51 AM
Check this (http://www.hothardware.com/printarticle.aspx?articleid=1031) interesting article from HotHardware, it was written on october 2007 but it pretty much applies today.

I think the only game that performs better on DX10 with identical graphics settings is Lost Planet, I wish all DX10 games offered at least that option. Assassin's Creed is supposed to offer better performance too at identical graphical settings.

http://www.hothardware.com/articleimages/Item1031/State-Of-DX10_LP+_1920.png

And that game offers a couple of nice features like Fur Shader, that effect looks really cool.

http://www.hothardware.com/articleimages/Item1031/small_StateOfDX10_LP_Fur2.jpg

You also have a nice effect of volumetric lights & clouds in World if Conflict

http://www.hothardware.com/articleimages/Item1031/small_StateOfDX10_WiC_Lite1.jpg http://www.hothardware.com/articleimages/Item1031/small_StateOfDX10_WiC_Lite2.jpg

Bioshock offered some subtle graphical enhancements, like better water and particle effects

http://www.hothardware.com/articleimages/Item1031/small_StateOfDX10_BS_Rip.jpg http://www.hothardware.com/articleimages/Item1031/small_StateOfDX10_BS_SoftP1.jpg

Overall I would say I'm less than impressed with current state of DX10. Very few games take advantage of it, and most games run worse with the same level of detail. But some games like Lost Planet and Assassin's Creed show real framerate improvements (a little bird told me about this one), so I think it's a matter of time that we start to see benefits. The API is there and some games have proved it works, but sadly it's taking much more that we all wished that most developers make good use of it.

thats what i was talking about, same settings in dx9 vs dx10, and dx10 will perform better.

but once you start turning on all these geometry shaders etc.... FPS goes down

Revs
03-31-08, 10:54 AM
There are only small few games that actually run faster in DX10, the vast majority are slower.

nekrosoft13
03-31-08, 11:03 AM
There are only small few games that actually run faster in DX10, the vast majority are slower.
because that vast majority run dx10 with extra added iq and features turn on.

Revs
03-31-08, 11:06 AM
You won't see DX10 only games for a long time, if ever. DX10 only would cut off too many consumers that would be a huge source of revenue for developers. Also, developing 2 code paths simultaneously for DX9 and DX10 wouldn't be cost effective either. DX10 only might have a chance if the game being developed is truly 'next gen'. Then again, we have had these 'next gen' titles coming out for the past year and nobody has went DX10 only because, as I said above, they would be killing their revenue.

That's fair enough. What would need to happen then is for a game to be designed and developed on DX10 and then adapted to work on DX9 (with less features, etc). I don't know enough about this sort of thing to know if it's a viable way of doing things, but you're right that there may never be a good DX10 only game. Wasn't Alan Wake gonna be DX10 only?

Revs
03-31-08, 11:09 AM
because that vast majority run dx10 with extra added iq and features turn on.

One example is Crysis. I've not done any benching for a while, but with the same settings running in DX9 and DX10, DX9 was about 10-20% faster. That gap may have closed with newer drivers though. I'll have another go at testing this tonight.

jcrox
03-31-08, 11:20 AM
Taking full advantage of DX10 and having decent frame rates will require both hardware and software optimizing..... done over time. The situation is very similar to what things were like when DX9 first hit. Games that really pushed the envelope, like Far Cry, couldn't be run at with max settings @ high resolutions for quite some time when DX9 was new and that was done within the same OS. Performance in Crysis is almost identical to what it was with Far Cry when it came out, yet even though Crytek said it'll take 18 months for hardware to catch up to the game some people still seem to expect HL2 type performance numbers :retard:


...and really, other than Crysis.... what games are there that can't be run at max settings with high resolutions on today's high end systems??

Revs
03-31-08, 11:35 AM
But that's still the case with Crysis in DX9, too. It's not DX10 that's making it slow, it's just the sheer ammount it has to render.

I suppose my question is, is there more to come from DX10? Is it the lack of power that is stopping devs using more if it's features or is there little more to come? There has been talk for ages regarding graphics cards crunching physics and we seem to got a step closer recently with nVidia buying Agia, but will anything ever come of it.

DiscipleDOC
03-31-08, 12:54 PM
I blame crackheads like methimpikehoses.

mailman2
03-31-08, 01:57 PM
Assassin's Creed is supposed to offer better performance too at identical graphical settings.


Nah, thats not true.

http://www.pcgameshardware.de/screenshots/medium/2008/03/assassins_creed_dx9_vs_dx10_02.png


http://www.pcgameshardware.de/?menu=browser&mode=article&article_id=637474&entity_id=133800&image_id=797362&page=1

Only if you run lowest details was Vista faster.

mailman2
03-31-08, 02:00 PM
But that's still the case with Crysis in DX9, too. It's not DX10 that's making it slow, it's just the sheer ammount it has to render.

I suppose my question is, is there more to come from DX10? Is it the lack of power that is stopping devs using more if it's features or is there little more to come? There has been talk for ages regarding graphics cards crunching physics and we seem to got a step closer recently with nVidia buying Agia, but will anything ever come of it.


Ya know. I have a dev buddy, he mentioned DX10 is easier to code for because there are things much easier to do, however so far the hardware and Vista is making it hard for them to justify using it. Apparently, they can code more things in a much easier way but the performance trade off just isnt worth it at this point. Also, to just cut all DX9 support for a game is stupid, they'd loose too much business. We wont see a pure DX10 game for awhile.

nekrosoft13
03-31-08, 02:27 PM
Nah, thats not true.

http://www.pcgameshardware.de/screenshots/medium/2008/03/assassins_creed_dx9_vs_dx10_02.png


http://www.pcgameshardware.de/?menu=browser&mode=article&article_id=637474&entity_id=133800&image_id=797362&page=1

Only if you run lowest details was Vista faster.

keep in mind that that was beta press leak

XDanger
03-31-08, 02:36 PM
these things take time as its been said, theres just not enough people with the right hardware to justify DX10 only games,
For devs to make both 9+10 versions would be like producing 360+PS3 versions but without the money at the end of it.

If ms had held off on the 360 and made it a dx10 box the api would have been in a much better position.


hopefully when people see Vantage some momentum might be stirred up.

I for one am looking forward to a very lowly 3dmark Vantage score.

K007
03-31-08, 02:48 PM
Ass Creed is suppose to have DX10, but only to increase performance. Should be a good game to check the advantages of Dx10..PROVIDED...it is actually ported properly.

mailman2
03-31-08, 05:24 PM
keep in mind that that was beta press leak


Yea thats true too.

evox
03-31-08, 05:31 PM
IMO, the evolution of DX10 has been pulled back because of the recent "consolization" spree. Not to mention there's just not enough DX10 mainstream hardware to justify a DX10 render path. The cheap cards that support DX10 literally crawl when DX10 in enabled - in any game. Besides, nowadays devs are too busy working PS3/X360 titles, no time for the "niche" and "demanding" PC audience. lack of DX10 hardware and sappy devs = an API with tremendous potential being crippled and forced to watch from sidelines.

I also blame Microsoft for pimping DX10 with the "better performance" BS. The API clearly wasn't ready for it, the only thing that achieved was bad press.

mailman2
03-31-08, 05:42 PM
IMO, the evolution of DX10 has been pulled back because of the recent "consolization" spree. Not to mention there's just not enough DX10 mainstream hardware to justify a DX10 render path. The cheap cards that support DX10 literally crawl when DX10 in enabled - in any game. Besides, nowadays devs are too busy working PS3/X360 titles, no time for the "niche" and "demanding" PC audience. lack of DX10 hardware and sappy devs = an API with tremendous potential being crippled and forced to watch from sidelines.

I also blame Microsoft for pimping DX10 with the "better performance" BS. The API clearly wasn't ready for it, the only thing that achieved was bad press.


Its too bad there isnt a CP option to just change and use DX9 for all games even DX10 supported games. MS should give us a global option to just use DX9 for now.

evox
03-31-08, 06:11 PM
Its too bad there isnt a CP option to just change and use DX9 for all games even DX10 supported games. MS should give us a global option to just use DX9 for now.
Wait, you mean something like this?
http://i25.tinypic.com/2hhm0l0.jpg

mailman2
03-31-08, 07:40 PM
Wait, you mean something like this?
http://i25.tinypic.com/2hhm0l0.jpg


yea, but a master control. I know you can right click and select dx9 or 10 for each app. I want to just select dx9 all the time for all games for now.

ViN86
03-31-08, 07:55 PM
You won't see DX10 only games for a long time, if ever. DX10 only would cut off too many consumers that would be a huge source of revenue for developers. Also, developing 2 code paths simultaneously for DX9 and DX10 wouldn't be cost effective either. DX10 only might have a chance if the game being developed is truly 'next gen'. Then again, we have had these 'next gen' titles coming out for the past year and nobody has went DX10 only because, as I said above, they would be killing their revenue.
+1

here's the reason we see lame ass attempts at DX10 titles :(