Define Irony ...

[1stFlight]

It's ironic that these files were opened in this day and age. Maybe some people will start wanting their civil liberties back.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-05-05-senate-mccarthy-transcripts_x.htm

[UDawg]

LOL, The left really gets nuts about this issue. You guys need to let it go. McCarth opened the countries eyes to a mass conspiracy to undermind our government but since it was a communist conspiracy the left gets all hissy about it.

LOL I love it. The left keeps living in the past with all it's failed ideas like communism.

The funny thing about this is that people who were black listed in Hollywood whent on to make mucho money on their movies. So Hollywood should go screw them selves on this issue. Nobody cares about them and their ohhhh sooo hard life. :rolleyes:

[Son Goku]

"Anybody who stood up to McCarthy in closed session, and did so articulately, tended not to get called up into the public session," Ritchie said. "McCarthy was only interested in the people he could browbeat publicly."

..."These executive sessions are really trolling sessions," said David M. Oshinsky, author of a McCarthy biography, "A Conspiracy So Immense," and a history professor at the University of Texas.

"McCarthy is looking for people who either have a spectacular story to tell, or people he thinks he can break in public, or people he was certain will take the Fifth Amendment" against self-incrimination, Oshinsky said.

Yes, we all knew that McCarthy was a POS... He didn't even really know what Communism was or the real issues surrounding it, according to some biographers, but wanted to get into Congress and didn't have a campaign. Someone told him "why don't you just become a staunch anti-communist?"

Too bad, he wasn't sent before a real Court and forced to stand trial himself for that which he had done. But then I'm not sure law suites against government employees would have held back in the 1950s. He is one dude that I wouldn't have minded seeing face a lawsuite or worse trial after his practices of intimidating those who couldn't defend themselves...

[1stFlight]

You missed the problem, there was no conspiracy. He ruined so many peoples careers for nothing. That is the lesson that history teaches and we need to understand. Lest it happen again.


Originally posted by UDawg71
LOL, The left really gets nuts about this issue. You guys need to let it go. McCarth opened the countries eyes to a mass conspiracy to undermind our government but since it was a communist conspiracy the left gets all hissy about it.

LOL I love it. The left keeps living in the past with all it's failed ideas like communism.

The funny thing about this is that people who were black listed in Hollywood whent on to make mucho money on their movies. So Hollywood should go screw them selves on this issue. Nobody cares about them and their ohhhh sooo hard life. :rolleyes:

[UDawg]

Originally posted by 1stFlight
You missed the problem, there was no conspiracy. He ruined so many peoples careers for nothing. That is the lesson that history teaches and we need to understand. Lest it happen again.


Yes there was. KGB documents confirmed what our government knew and thought. It is a fact now. Sorry bud but there isn't any wiggle room here.

[1stFlight]

Are you referring to this?


Oshinsky said communists had indeed infiltrated the government during the 1930s and 1940s, but by the time McCarthy launched his investigation that had pretty much been stamped out.


Sorry McCarty didn't come to the forefront until the late 40's. It looks that the Right was the one going berserk, and history records it that way too. Talk about lack of wiggle room.


Originally posted by UDawg71
Yes there was. KGB documents confirmed what our government knew and thought. It is a fact now. Sorry bud but there isn't any wiggle room here.

[intercede007]

Can I ask why the hell it matters anymore?

I mean its very interesting stuff from a historical standpoint, but relevance? Anyone REALLY think Congress could go on a witch-hunt in this day and age?

[1stFlight]

PATRIOT act.... need I say more?

http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/Terrorism_militias/20011031_eff_usa_patriot_analysis.html

Originally posted by intercede007
Can I ask why the hell it matters anymore?

I mean its very interesting stuff from a historical standpoint, but relevance? Anyone REALLY think Congress could go on a witch-hunt in this day and age?

[intercede007]

Adding samples to DNA database for those convicted of "any crime of violence."

Good idea. We already keep finger prints. Why not include DNA too? Rate of recidivism in the US is ridiculous. If this helps catch sexual predators that much quicker, I'll draw the blood myself. Hell, you can have mine too if it helps. I don't plan on raping anybody. Ever.

Wiretaps now allowed for suspected violations of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.

No problems with that one either.

Dramatic increases to the scope and penalties of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.

See above.

Increased information sharing between domestic law enforcement and intelligence.

It has always baffled me why the left hand doesn't know what the right hand does.

ISPs hand over more user information.

It's always amazed me that if the Police can walk around and talk to all your friends and your co-workers about your where abouts and check your alebit but they can't contact your ISP and get information about IP addresses and durations just as easily. It only takes a simple subpeona to get your bank account statements. I don't see why your internet dealings should be any more protected.


While I am sure I hold your disdain for the roving wire tap laws, I do think that a fair bit of the Patriot Act took a step in the right direction for the emerging internet crime phenomenon. Things could be changed, and thats why we can amend laws after they are passed. Don't like them? Call your state representives. I did a week after this thing was passed.

[UDawg]

Originally posted by 1stFlight
PATRIOT act.... need I say more?

http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/Terrorism_militias/20011031_eff_usa_patriot_analysis.html

The left and Libratarians make way too much of the Patriot Act.

As far as why does it matter? It doesn't...unless you are a stuck in the past liberal. I like 1stFlight that is why I worry about him creating a ulcer over this issue. :p ;)

[1stFlight]

Sorry if you and interceed don't mind having your 4th Amendment rights stripped from you in the name of false security. I mind. I wonder how many rpms our forefathers can do inside a casket... How much more of the Bill of Rights should be thrown away?

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Originally posted by UDawg71
The left and Libratarians make way too much of the Patriot Act.

As far as why does it matter? It doesn't...unless you are a stuck in the past liberal. I like 1stFlight that is why I worry about him creating a ulcer over this issue. :p ;)

[PsychoSy]

Originally posted by UDawg71
The left and Libratarians make way too much of the Patriot Act.

If the following happened to you (white, Republican-voting, male), I'm sure your tune would change really quick now, wouldn't it?

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15770



Patriot Raid

We helped ourselves to the buffet and then sat down to begin eating our
dinner. I was just about to tell Asher how I'd eaten there before and how
delicious the vegetable curry was, but I never got a chance. All of a sudden,
there was a terrible commotion and five NYPD in bulletproof vests stormed down
the stairs. They had their guns drawn and were pointing them indiscriminately
at the restaurant staff and at us.


"Go to the back, go to the back of the restaurant," they yelled.


I hesitated, lost in my own panic.


"Did you not hear me, go to the back and sit down," they demanded.


I complied and looked around at the other patrons. There were eight men
including the waiter, all of South Asian descent and ranging in age from
late-teens to senior citizen. One of the policemen pointed his gun point-blank
in the face of the waiter and shouted: "Is there anyone else in the
restaurant?" The waiter, terrified, gestured to the kitchen.


The police placed their fingers on the triggers of their guns and kicked open
the kitchen doors. Shouts emanated from the kitchen and a few seconds later
five Hispanic men were made to crawl out on their hands and knees, guns
pointed at them.


After patting us all down, the five officers seated us at two tables. As they
continued to kick open doors to closets and bathrooms with their fingers glued
to their triggers, no less than ten officers in suits emerged from the
stairwell. Most of them sat in the back of the restaurant typing on their
laptop computers. Two of them walked over to our table and identified
themselves as officers of the INS and Homeland Security Department.


I explained that we were just eating dinner and asked why we were being held.
We were told by the INS agent that we would be released once they had
confirmation that we had no outstanding warrants and our immigration status
was OK'd.


In pre-9/11 America, the legality of this would have been questionable. After
all, the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution states: "The right of the people
to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects, against
unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated; and no warrants
shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and
particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to
be seized."


"You have no right to hold us," Asher insisted.


"Yes, we have every right," responded one of the agents. "You are being held
under the Patriot Act following suspicion under an internal Homeland Security
investigation."


When I asked to speak to a lawyer, the INS official informed me that I do have
the right to a lawyer but I would have to be brought down to the station and
await security clearance before being granted one. When I asked how long that
would take, he replied with a coy smile: "Maybe a day, maybe a week, maybe a
month."


We insisted that we had every right to leave and were going to do so. One of
the policemen walked over with his hand on his gun and taunted: "Go ahead and
leave, just go ahead..."

Click the link for the story in its entirety...

As far as I'm concerned, any American who reads this and reponds with a triumphant "Hooyah" should be taken outside and repeatedly shot by a firing squad comprived of homeless minorities (long after their carcasses stop twitching, too). :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[intercede007]

I'm not saying the Patriot Act, in some of its provisions, doesn't go to far. Indeed, as shown in the above mentioned instance, it does.

But, on the same token, I do feel that many of the changes made to laws about the aquisition of network information about suspects is warranted, and LONG overdue. I've often wondered why my IP address and my visits on the internet have more protection then my bank account from the Police.

[UDawg]

Originally posted by PsychoSy
If the following happened to you (white, Republican-voting, male), I'm sure your tune would change really quick now, wouldn't it?



Click the link for the story in its entirety...

As far as I'm concerned, any American who reads this and reponds with a triumphant "Hooyah" should be taken outside and repeatedly shot by a firing squad comprived of homeless minorities (long after their carcasses stop twitching, too). :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

You can't find a more liberal paper? Salon.com maybe? :rolleyes: :p

The story had no sources.

[intercede007]

Jason Halperin lives in New York City and works at Doctors Without Borders/Medicins San Frontieres. If you are moved by this account, he asks that you consider donating to your local ACLU chapter.

It's a personal account. It needs NO sources, unless somehow his own thoughts and experiences placed on paper constitute plagerism.

[UDawg]

Originally posted by intercede007
Jason Halperin lives in New York City and works at Doctors Without Borders/Medicins San Frontieres. If you are moved by this account, he asks that you consider donating to your local ACLU chapter.

It's a personal account. It needs NO sources, unless somehow his own thoughts and experiences placed on paper constitute plagerism.

You are right. It is just a story. I should have said there wasn't any proof. My bad.

[Ryoko]

Originally posted by PsychoSy
If the following happened to you (white, Republican-voting, male), I'm sure your tune would change really quick now, wouldn't it?

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15770



Click the link for the story in its entirety...

As far as I'm concerned, any American who reads this and reponds with a triumphant "Hooyah" should be taken outside and repeatedly shot by a firing squad comprived of homeless minorities (long after their carcasses stop twitching, too). :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

sorry, but this guy was a moron.

yes, cops are dicks (normally).

yes, they had every right to leave.

however, if they had cooperated fully, they would be able to leave no questions asked soon enough. hell, i think it's fun to talk to cops. i've been interrogated 3 times in the last 2 years, once with a gun pointed at me for a few minutes. not once did i have a problem and i was let go in an hour or less every time.

i'm not meaning any offense by this, but why do liberals hate cops so much? are cops really a threat to freedom?

[LORD-eX-Bu]

I've learned to dislike certain cops that have given me a hard time:D

[vampireuk]

Anyone who trades their freedom for BS security deserves a kick in the teeth with steel toe caps. Abraham lincoln will be doing backflips in his grave right about now.

[2fast4u]

Originally posted by UDawg71
You can't find a more liberal paper? Salon.com maybe? :rolleyes: :p


hehe, you consider something unreliable because you dont want to hear it? :rolleyes:

the thing psychosy pointed out is not the only story like this.

i read an article a while back that meanwhile book stores that carry critical literature are being searched w/o warrant whereas officials are given the right to confiscate customer data.

good old shut-up-and-buy-a-flag act :rolleyes: i wonder how old ben franklin would feel about this kind of freedom of speech.

[vampireuk]

Originally posted by UDawg71
You can't find a more liberal paper? Salon.com maybe? :rolleyes: :p


OK next time we will use a republican source, so you can well up with pride knowing that the gun in your face is for the good of the nation:p

[vampireuk]

Originally posted by Ryoko
i'm not meaning any offense by this, but why do liberals hate cops so much? are cops really a threat to freedom?

It depends on the cop, if they abuse their position like they did in this guys account then yes they are are a threat to freedom. The guy had every right to question the act of the officers as they were acting out of cowardice and ignorance.

[1stFlight]

I've always wondered what the Republicans are actually protecting?

Civil Liberties an asset of this nation are under attack and the people most charged to protect them are labeled, "Liberal", like it's a dirty word..."oh you're Liberal!!!"

Yeah I'm Liberal, like my Bill of Rights intact, I like my government out of my life and my neighbors, because it's stood the test of time and proven a great country can swell while working within it, while other countries without it, have long since crumbled.

Anyone that doesn't defend the Consititution is a traitor, go live somewhere else. Try North Korea, I hear they have great policies on Civil Liberties....

------------------
Problems with the Patriot Act

Allows Americans to be More Easily Spied Upon by US Foreign Intelligence Agencies. -- Why does my government feel the need to spy on me? If it's only concerned about forgeiners, Ashcroft has already made the point that the Constitution doesn't protect them.

FISA detour around federal domestic surveillance limitations; domestic detour around FISA limitations. -- It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out if some stranger is buying a few hundred pounds of fertilizer, and doesn't own a farm, odds are something bad is going to happen.... this provision isn't neccessary either, common sense, and the laws already in place are more than sufficent.

Expanded Surveillance With Reduced Checks and Balances. When asking a judge to approve a wiretap or other means of remote surveillance, a reason must be given, however the DoJ, has gone on record as lying about it's reasons, now there isn't even a dimes worth over oversight in that area. They don't even have to give a reason, and yes this applies to born and bred Americans too.

All in all while it has some good provisions, it has too many that can only serve to diminish the protections afforded to All Americans.

[UDawg]

Originally posted by 2fast4u
hehe, you consider something unreliable because you dont want to hear it? :rolleyes:


You consider it reliable because you do want to hear it? :rolleyes:


I have never said oraganizations abused their powers or that the patriot act is something we should ignore. I am saying it is not the the beginning of big brother. You can't thank the dems who started that.

BTW then Clinton keept private files of public and private officials the left never cried. :rolleyes: Don't act like the left is the defender of civil liberties. Shall I list the left's achievements for bigger government? Don't act like your poo don't stink. Remember I am a conservative first and a Republican second. I will turn in a second when the republicans get out of hand. Also when do illegal imagrants get the same rights as legal imagrants or natural citizens. Don't bring two arguments into one.

[Sazar]

patriot act is passed... I think it is patriot act II you probably should be discussing :)

as for big government ? when was the last time government has been much bigger than it is now ? :D

(yes yes I know its wartime et al... j/k)