Pretty good 5800 review

[Kruno]

Originally posted by bkswaney
Everyone speaks of bad IQ.
hummm... it's funny how I cannot tell any difference in the radeon and 5800 with the naked eye.

Yes Mr HB we kiss the Radeons @ss. :rolleyes:
The only problem I have with the FX is the screensaver OH problem.

"Fact" some fanboyz give a good product a bad light. :p
"Fact" any site like THG etc that test these cards that has
the ultra winning is a sh!t site to the fanboyz of the other product.
"Fact" on "MY" system the 5800 is just about as fast as my Pro was.
"Fact" my 3DM01 and 03 scores are 1000 points higher with the Ultra with the same settings."IQ"

Don't get me wrong I LOVE the Radeon. It's a better card in most cases.
I hate to see people bashing a card that they do not even own.
The ultra is a wonderful, fast, mean looking card.

This reminds me of the 8500. The shoe is on the other foot.
The NV owners bashed the hell out of us 8500 owners to begain with. Then better drivers really helped out. ;)
Plus everyone and his brothers uncle does not own one. :) :):angel:

Uhm... considering I am not arguing against you (I agree with you), who are you arguing with ( other than fanboys ;) )? :lol:

[bkswaney]

Originally posted by K.I.L.E.R
Uhm... considering I am not arguing against you (I agree with you), who are you arguing with ( other than fanboys ;) )? :lol:

I'm just saying it before all the fanboyz jump in. ;) :D :D hehehe

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by Hellbinder
Yeah right.. sure it beats the 9700pro. :rolleyes:

Especially when you engineer the Settings to favor Nvidia. How convenient for you'all that there are so many unscroupulous web sites out there eh??

And thats not even getting into the *FACT* that Nvidias 4x AA is totally and completely inferior in every concievable way.

um...according to the review they used Quality(Application). Now you're saying that Application isn't good enough? :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Rogozhin
were they using application for both aa and af?

if not the comparison is far from being fair.

for example unless app if used with 8x af then trilinear isn't being forced.

rogo

Same thing as above.

They say they used Quality on the test setup page right here: http://www.vr-zone.com/reviews/Inno3D/FX5800/page3.htm

[bkswaney]

I was noticing the AGP settings on page 3.
Where is it? I cannot seem to find the agp setting. :confused:

[hovz]

Originally posted by StealthHawk
um...according to the review they used Quality(Application). Now you're saying that Application isn't good enough? :rolleyes:



Same thing as above.

They say they used Quality on the test setup page right here: http://www.vr-zone.com/reviews/Inno3D/FX5800/page3.htm

could be wrong but i thought when they changed the settings to match ats naming system, they didnt include an option for application mode, wasnt that why hardcop says these drivers are a scam or soemthing

[Hellbinder]

Bk, Im not the fanboy here... That should be obvious... :rolleyes: Anyonelike you who *Claims* to not see a Difference in the AA+AF of the 9700pro is simply not stating the truth for your own personal motivations. A.KA. = Fanboy.

You guys only scratched the tip of the issues with that conclusion...

Inno3D Tornado GeForce FX 5800 is not the best performing card you can find out there in the market especially with Radeon 9800 Pro cards around. Even Radeon 9700 Pro cards can offer better gaming performance at similar price point at the current moment. However, there are already some evidences that next generation games like Doom III will be able to perform better on NV30 architecture and also the games written on Cg programming will be able to utilize the engine to the fullest. Definitely, there are a number of consumers out there who prefer to stick with NVIDIA based cards for better compatibilities with games. Inno3D Tornado GeForce FX 5800 card can be overclocked to a GeForce FX 5800 Ultra version at 500/1000Mhz core/mem easily but any higher is limited by the current cooler design. Definitely, the performance of the card was improved dramatically from the higher core/mem clock and will be able to outperform the Radeon 9700 Pro this time.

Again the ridiculous mention of Doom-III. which we all know only runs a few % faster on the Nv30 (in the current un-released version) becuase JC has a lot of special code paths that REDUCE QUALITY. Yes these A-Holes never seem to remebmer to mention that. The fact of the matter is that Future games are going to run like **** on the Nv30 becuase of its hardware issues. Unless of course like in the case of Doom-III and Stalker the Developer babysits the Nv30 and gives it special Ed like handouts.

Of course there are cases where the FXUltra is faster. Especially where its Core speed advantage of 175mhz comes into play.

[Hellbinder]

Stealthhawk..

Dont you Nv types even know your own hardware? and whats going on with your drivers??? :rolleyes:

Quality mode in all current Nvidia Drivers = Ballanced mode. Which Clamps several texture stages to Bilinear Filtering, Cuts out some Blend stages etc..

The reason why this is different than Atis approach is this. You Nvtypes are always pointing out how ATi's method Shanks the AF at really odd bizzare almost never seen angles like 22.5 DEgrees. When the entire time you are so completely foolish becuase Nvidias Method shanks ALL ANGLES. As I have pointed out over and over Anisotropic filtering was never intended nor appropriate for all angles. Primarily 90' and some others. This is a mathematical principle that is true even outside the graphics world. Thus ATi's method *is* the correct approach. AS it deals correctly with the problem of Anistopy as it exsists. Whereas Nvidias method is one to hack the Filtering in several ways even on the primary angle of 90'.

[saturnotaku]

Originally posted by Hellbinder
becuase JC has a lot of special code paths that REDUCE QUALITY.

Got a link on that?

[Hellbinder]

Got a link on that?

This is very public knowledge from his last major .plan update...

[hovz]

hellbinder is right

[jAkUp]

the quality setting in nv drivers is "application" or "quality" in the new drivers.

QUALITY MODE IS WHAT THE NV30 DEFAULTS TO.

[saturnotaku]

Ok, I have his Jan. 29 .plan update in front of me. It sure looks like Carmack has reduced quality code paths at his disposal, but where exactly does he say that he's indeed using them? From this statement, it doesn't sound like he's using them:

so when Nvidia runs fragment programs, they are at a higher precision than ATI's, which is some justification for the slower speed. Nvidia assures me that there is a lot of room for improving the fragment program performance with improved driver compiler technology.

Sounds to me like he's holding out hope for said increases. I suppose we'll have to wait until the game is closer to going gold before we'll know for sure if said other code paths have been used.

[jAkUp]

you must also remember that since january, the drivers for the nv30 have improved tremendously... the drivers he had in january were very, very, early drivers... it wasnt until recently that the drivers started shaping up.

[mreman4k]

This is funny....basically any NV30 review thread is reduced to AA/AF arguing by everyone. Who cares about some review. It is all based on the users personal preference. If 2x AA on the NV30 looks better to Tyrone than 6x AA on the 9800 Pro, so be it and dont argue with it, its his eyes. I have had only experience with ATi products (except my brief run in with the GF4 MX 420) so I don't know what the nv30 looks like. I would not take a NV30 over my Radeon 9700 Pro, but the NV35 :D ...hell yea.

"Why can't we all just get along!?"

[RobHague]

I think we should wait for the Detonator FX (5x.xx) before we make any final judements on the FX's performance. :)

And what mreman4k said, hellbinder is in here far too often with the "this is why ati are better..." which there is just no need for. The NV30 is a nice card, so is the R300/350. Which you get is completley upto personal choice and they all have their own strenghs and weakness's.

People tend to think im pro-nvidia btw just because i stick up for them far more than most people, check around the other graphics cards thread though and you will see that i just buy what i thinks best. Right now i have a 9700 PRO on the way. Truth is ill take the opposite of an argument just to argue ;) its my one flaw :D :lol:

Ill let you guys know how my FX > 9700 AIW goes.. :)

[Behemoth]

Quality mode in all current Nvidia Drivers = Ballanced mode. Which Clamps several texture stages to Bilinear Filtering, Cuts out some Blend stages etc..
this shows you know nothing about nv30 AF modes.
bashing doom3 and special path shows you have some kind of jealous problem.
in your mind, everything is primarily 90 degree? even outside the graphics world? lol no wonder you need an ati card muhahahahahaha.
by the way, quality mode = application mode.

[John Reynolds]

Originally posted by saturnotaku
Ok, I have his Jan. 29 .plan update in front of me. It sure looks like Carmack has reduced quality code paths at his disposal, but where exactly does he say that he's indeed using them?

http://www.beyond3d.com/interviews/jcnv30r300/

Carmack isn't going to spend time programming these multiple paths if the plan is to ship the game without them. This is just again a situation wherein ATi made a very smart design decision by supporting 24fp -- good IQ and good speed. NV30 is either speed, 16fp, or IQ, full 32fp, with the caveat, as Carmack himself has noted, most users won't notice the differences between 24fp and 32fp but they sure will notice the performance difference.

[jAkUp]

and where exactly does it say hes begun programing them???

nobody will notice 24fp vs 32fp... nobody will notice 16fp vs 24fp either.

[marcocom]

Originally posted by hovz
as i said in application mode with any aa or af nv30 loses

just with AF enabled.

nvidia's AA is actually really good - its just that alot of people run AF alongside it.

with Aniso properly disabled (meaning that not only the drivers, but also the bench or game is toggled for TRILINEAR filtering instead of Aniso) i cant even see a slowdown from FSAA but usually 5% tops.

but man that AF slowdown bug is a ****ing dog. i mean its almost unplayable with Aniso on. how the hell is nvidia at version 40+ on their drivers with such an open bug still visible, is beyond me and is inexcusable.

hovz what hardware do you have? what scores do you get with AF disabled on your ATi solution with just AA enabled? lets test that attitude of yours =)

[saturnotaku]

Originally posted by John Reynolds
http://www.beyond3d.com/interviews/jcnv30r300/

Carmack isn't going to spend time programming these multiple paths if the plan is to ship the game without them. This is just again a situation wherein ATi made a very smart design decision by supporting 24fp -- good IQ and good speed. NV30 is either speed, 16fp, or IQ, full 32fp, with the caveat, as Carmack himself has noted, most users won't notice the differences between 24fp and 32fp but they sure will notice the performance difference.

Fair enough, but we still have to look at if NVIDIA will improve fp32 performance with so called "improved driver compiler technology." But knowing the way NV's been going lately, it's probably going to be a matter of too little, too late. :|

[marcocom]

Originally posted by John Reynolds
http://www.beyond3d.com/interviews/jcnv30r300/

Carmack isn't going to spend time programming these multiple paths if the plan is to ship the game without them. This is just again a situation wherein ATi made a very smart design decision by supporting 24fp -- good IQ and good speed. NV30 is either speed, 16fp, or IQ, full 32fp, with the caveat, as Carmack himself has noted, most users won't notice the differences between 24fp and 32fp but they sure will notice the performance difference.

Doom3 engine is feature-complete and the engine and editor are gold. their just handing it to the designers and letting them build the game you will see. (which takes over a year too)

im afraid Carmack's decisions cannot be repealed at this stage except in patches.

[John Reynolds]

Originally posted by jAkUp
and where exactly does it say hes begun programing them???

nobody will notice 24fp vs 32fp... nobody will notice 16fp vs 24fp either.

You think he's testing their relative performances out of thin air? How exactly does one compare the relative performance of differing code paths without actually writing those paths?

As for IQ, Carmack wrote: "I would have been happy to have just 16 bit, but some texture calculations have already been done in 24 bit, so it would have been sort of a step back in some cases." 16fp vs. 24fp will probably be more noticeable than 24fp vs. 32fp.

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by Hellbinder
Stealthhawk..

Dont you Nv types even know your own hardware? and whats going on with your drivers??? :rolleyes:

Quality mode in all current Nvidia Drivers = Ballanced mode. Which Clamps several texture stages to Bilinear Filtering, Cuts out some Blend stages etc..

The reason why this is different than Atis approach is this. You Nvtypes are always pointing out how ATi's method Shanks the AF at really odd bizzare almost never seen angles like 22.5 DEgrees. When the entire time you are so completely foolish becuase Nvidias Method shanks ALL ANGLES. As I have pointed out over and over Anisotropic filtering was never intended nor appropriate for all angles. Primarily 90' and some others. This is a mathematical principle that is true even outside the graphics world. Thus ATi's method *is* the correct approach. AS it deals correctly with the problem of Anistopy as it exsists. Whereas Nvidias method is one to hack the Filtering in several ways even on the primary angle of 90'.

Negative, pal.

What you say used to be true, emphasis on "used to." nvidia renamed the driver settings yet again, and Application = Quality now, Balanced = Balanced, Aggressive = Performance.

For someone who bashes on nvidia so much, you sure don't keep up with current events.

Also, what is this "you Nv types" nonsense. Look at my sig. Tell me what video card I have, it's not nvidia
:rolleyes:

[surfhurleydude]

Again the ridiculous mention of Doom-III. which we all know only runs a few % faster on the Nv30 (in the current un-released version) becuase JC has a lot of special code paths that REDUCE QUALITY. Yes these A-Holes never seem to remebmer to mention that. The fact of the matter is that Future games are going to run like **** on the Nv30 becuase of its hardware issues. Unless of course like in the case of Doom-III and Stalker the Developer babysits the Nv30 and gives it special Ed like handouts.

Of course there are cases where the FXUltra is faster. Especially where its Core speed advantage of 175mhz comes into play.

The NV30 runs over 50% faster than the Radeon 9700 Pro in the "current unreleased version" of Doom 3. Go read XBits review or ask anyone that has tried both. I'm sick and tired of your anti nvidia fabrications.

edit by StealthHawk: No personal insults. Edited.

[RobHague]

I just discovered my own driver 'tweak' from NVIDIA. ;)

Take a look at...
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11355
:lol:

To stop people benchmarking with the wrong setting maybe? lol :D