Vans, Toms, HardOCp etc...

[druga runda]

I am not sure if threads about this are allowed, but it is an interesting read.

Apart from having almost everyone involved, I am wandering what is the latest problem that this site has with HardOcp.

It seems that everyone has a problem with someone :confused:

One you grow bigger the list of your enemies grows bigger too.

What is the deal? At the end of the day we all want to read news/revies and that is just about all that we want to do.


In this case it is Van posting AMD Bapco stuff
Kyle questioning that and the motives
Tom questioning Kyle and Van???

I think we need an independant "Hardware review sites" review site :D


** edit: I apologise this was not meant to be in general software, so if someone wants to move it to general hardware -or where it fits - just for discussion (I have scrolled my mouse wheel accidentaly :o )

[Switch]

I think it's a bunch of immature picking at each other.... Everyone's in for a chance to attack someone else.

[DaveW]

nvnews has had a few run ins with hardocp before...

[volt]

comeon! tomshardware.com and amdzone love each other :>

[SavagePaladin]

A llot of articles at Toms come across as trash.
This one doesn't directly, but I actually respect Van Smith so I don't exactly BELIEVE him either.

As to the issue at hand, even Anand doesn't think Sysmark 2002 is a good bench

[outriding9800]

It looks like to me tom is trying to discredit van and kyle.

i remember the feud between tom and kyle and i also remember they have made up in the past. tom never did say what they were mad about.

tom and van have a problem when van released an article and did the research on it and tom took credit for it. yea i know that can was working for tom at the time but that was kind of low. ( i can't remember what it was about )

if you remember recently tom has put alot more ads on his site he probably needs/wants more money by getting more people to his site.

if the hardware/software manufactures should be the ones most upset if you make them mad you dont get any new hardware. he didn't need to make those coments.

btw i have been going to their sites since when the 486 66mhz was released ( when ever that was... it was my first pc )

[Spiritwalker]

Tom and Kyle share a mutual dislike for each other but respect each other (professionally) as well.

Tom and Van hate each other. And as to Tom taking credit for a story Van wrote... That is according to Van.

As Tom posted on his site, he claims that he had to majorly edit much of Vans work.

Now who is to be believed? I for one would put more trust in Tom, who has been around for many more years than Van and is more than reliable in many respects.

Kyle comes across as a lot more outspoken and willing to put himself at the limits. But again, for the most part he is trustworthy. (and I like the sly humor that he uses on his site).

Now, to the point. Tom and Kyle both agree here, that Van has just posted what AMD wanted him to, and Anand seems to be doing the same. Both are using AMD .pdfs for their info.

What is needed is an independant hardware lab (Extremetech or Aces, etc.) who have no affilliation to the other 3 sites and no ties to this matter (Aces would be the better but ET has the funding to undertake matters more quickly).
Do the benches skew to the P4? Yes. But is it underhanded? I dont think so. The apps are standard. The extentions used are standard. And where will AMD then stand when the Hammer series come out, itself supporting SSE2?

Previous BAPco benches have shown the Athlon to be in favor (using 3DNow vs SSE1). Other benches (spec viewperf etc.) do the same.

I think that most of us can come to our own decisions about all of this. And mine is that it is just a publicity stunt by Van and AMD to pump up the 2600+ and overshadow todays release of the P4 2.8 GHz.

[nin_fragile14]

I found in interesting about the whole "Quack 3" issue---how Kyle claimed it as his own, yet nvidia fed him all the information. As for the Van vs. Hardocp fight going on right now, I could care less.

[BrianG]

You guys would be surprised by the lack of manners, intelligence and rationality from Mr. Bennett in exchanges between Mike and myself and the "gentlemen" of HardOCP. Basically, when faced with solid arguments presented in a logical manner, the debate is reduced, in the first reply, to name-calling, profanity and accusatory drivel.

Kyle's success is inexplicable, on the same order of Vin Diesel or the Backstreet Boys. I just don't get it.

I do appreciate Tom's observation of the "Strong-Arm" about face when NVIDIA spoon fed the Quack. And Kyle accuses us of being biased and for sale...

[[Corporal Dan]]

Originally posted by BrianG
You guys would be surprised by the lack of manners, intelligence and rationality from Mr. Bennett in exchanges between Mike and myself and the "gentlemen" of HardOCP. Basically, when faced with solid arguments presented in a logical manner, the debate is reduced, in the first reply, to name-calling, profanity and accusatory drivel.

Kyle's success is inexplicable, on the same order of Vin Diesel or the Backstreet Boys. I just don't get it.

I do appreciate Tom's observation of the "Strong-Arm" about face when NVIDIA spoon fed the Quack. And Kyle accuses us of being biased and for sale...

HardOcp and Hypothermia (a hosted site over there) are both sites with little or no integrity. No respect. No professional courtesy.

I lost all respect for both of those sites a long time ago... There was an altrecation between them and GameBasement.

As for Van's? Doesn't seem as much as a sellout as others.

Tom's? Eh, so-so.

[volt]

Tom sold his soul to intel few times :)
That showed on his benchmarks plus it was revealed by sources from amdzone

[Matthyahuw]

two words:

WHO CARES!

Everyone here should (at least I hope) have a brain to think for themselves and see behind the biases of each and ANYsite, and draw their own concusions...

[SavagePaladin]

well, if any of its true, I'd care...
http://www.vanshardware.com/articles/2002/08/020826_Unwind/020826_Unwind.htm
and Tom and his staff have posted some of the most ridiculous crap I've read on good hardware sites, so trust them? I think not.

[nin_fragile14]

Based on journalism, I would believe Tom before Van, because Van comes off sounding like a whining baby. But who am I to judge? When new hardware comes out, I'll continue to hit all the sites, whether or not I know the author's personal life.

[saturnotaku]

Originally posted by nin_fragile14
whether or not I know the author's personal life.

This is exactly the kind of stuff that will absolutely destroy a journalist's credibility. Once that goes, the integrity of the organization where he/she works gets called into question. Bringing one's personal life into the open, whether connected with a story or not is an absolute cardinal sin that any journalist worth a darn knows.

As a writer/reporter, your job is to seek out the truth and report it without letting personal feelings get in the way. This can be very hard in this thin-skinned world of ours but unfortunately it's something that has to be done for the sake of the readers.

[Philibob]

Well have you read what's at the top of the page at the moment, http://www.vanshardware.com/

[[Corporal Dan]]

CRIKEY!

Everyone read this NOW. Immediately!

http://www.vanshardware.com/articles/2002/08/020826_Unwind_Removed/020826_Unwind_Removed.htm

[[Corporal Dan]]

And then read Tom's "Editorial" on the subject for a good laugh. Who would you rather trust?

If I ever met tom on the street, i'd break his nose and kick him in the nads.

Edit: Sentence structure... shame on me.

[SavagePaladin]

It all makes me glad I don't frequent any of those sites....except Van who actually sounded intelligent, but I'm more a multimedia tech junkie than processor tech anyway

[[Corporal Dan]]

Originally posted by nazistguy
I rather think tom's not like that. He would treat me like a dog ! :eek:

Tom is the type of guy typically referred to as an asshole.

From what I gathered from Van's article, he is a Neo-Nazi.

And read his editorial:

http://www.tomshardware.com/blurb/02q3/020825/index.html

What an arrogant bastard.

Dr Thomas Pabst... hahaha. Don't make me laugh, my sides already hurt from laughing.

[[Corporal Dan]]

Originally posted by nazistguy
And what's the problem between kyle and van, that tom cited in his editorial ?

No idea, missed that one.

[legion88]

Originally posted by BrianG
You guys would be surprised by the lack of manners, intelligence and rationality from Mr. Bennett in exchanges between Mike and myself and the "gentlemen" of HardOCP. Basically, when faced with solid arguments presented in a logical manner, the debate is reduced, in the first reply, to name-calling, profanity and accusatory drivel.

Kyle's success is inexplicable, on the same order of Vin Diesel or the Backstreet Boys. I just don't get it.

I do appreciate Tom's observation of the "Strong-Arm" about face when NVIDIA spoon fed the Quack. And Kyle accuses us of being biased and for sale...

Bennett and memories. The guy is a sensationalist. His site and "Hypothermia" are looking for hits and they do a relatively good job of it. I'm not saying he's trustworthy. Impression that I've received from some people is that Bennett is a "sell-out", which I assume means he can be "bought".

Anyway, Mr. Pabst isn't without faults in that editorial of his. He openly admits that he thought that ATI's drivers were "cheesy" (his words). He even said that:
I thought "Aha! ATi is cheating. Let's have a look!" I checked it out and indeed, there was something cheesy going on.


He verifies that there's cheating involved but declared it wasn't serious. Cheating is not serious to him, apparently. He downplays it by calling it "cheesy" in the end. Moreover, because of this notion of "dirty laundry", he refused to say anything public about it.

Months go by....no word from anyone that there's something "cheesy going on" as the previews pile on and finally the reviews.

Now didn't Mr. Pabst wrote a review on the 8500 last October? Yes, he did and he posted the Quake III results, too. Thus, it means that Mr. Pabst deliberately posted results of benchmarks where "cheesy" drivers were used. He posted the results without saying a word about how "cheesy" the drivers were.

That calls into question his integrity. Why post results you know might be questionable and without telling the readers the issues? It gives people the impression that there was nothing wrong with the results when he knew otherwise.

Bennett on the other hand did not indicate at all that his source was an outside source, much less NVIDIA. He made it sound like that he or one of his buddies discovered the cheat. Give credit where credit is due, I say. At the very least, make it obvious that someone informed him without identifying the source.

No journalist is obligated to give out his/her source. Pabst knows that. Criticizing Bennett for not mentioning the source is dumb. Criticizing Bennett for making it appear that he did the work...well that's a different story.

Then there's the AMD/BAPco story. If he didn't want to spend the effort on "dirty laundry" (see Quack), then why did he have his staff try to verify AMD's claims? And what would happen if they actually found something? Would he publically reveal the findings or will he keep quiet because it was just "dirty laundry"?

Oh, speaking of "dirty laundry", what was all those paragraphs on Van Smith then (e.g. "There are several stories he wrote that I considered un-publishable and they are still in my drawer.")?

He starts out saying he's against airing "dirty laundry" then proceeds to air "dirty laundry".

[[Corporal Dan]]

Thomas Pabst is a hypocrite, as well.

Why am I not surprised.

You raised some excellent points there, legion88.

I for one am never going to waste time reading anything at tomshardware ever again.

[SavagePaladin]

I never argue with a time wasting device...I just never take him seriously either.

[sbp]

This is is a finger-pointing contest between big shots egomanics.

Its no secret that: there has been stuff going on behind the scenes at websites for years now, there has been politics between sites for years and that certain websites will do anything for the [H]its.