The right price for the GTX200 family...

[cvearl]

As a long time PC Gamer I have been having a blast watching all the new cards hit the scene and the recent price drops. It's been an exciting month! (nana2)

After now reading a bazilion reviews for the AMD 4870 and 4850 and getting a 4870 myself, I have turned my attention to the GTX200's. Mainly because I like to own one of each camp and the GTX260 has been of great interrest to me. I enjoy being able to compare cards side by side.

That said, I still have a huge problem with the pricing structure out there. Even in light of price drops. The GTX200's HAVE to come down more!

I have been reading reviews on the GTX200's alot. They are great cards! The release of the 4000 series from AMD do NOT make them any less of a card. However, given current market conditions in the various segments, they are too costly still for what you get. :(

Here is my take on where the current line up needs to be to be a good value and competative. My suggested MSRP's...

9800GTX - $189
GTX260 - $299
GTX280 - $399

I did not include 9800GTX+ becuase it offers nearly nothing over the existing 9800GTX besides a touch lower power consumption. The 9800GTX was fine with a simple price adjustment. That was all that was needed.

Anyone not agree with this? And do we think nVidia will be able to?

C.

[Blacklash]

C if you want a GTX 260 to play with for 299usd straight up, there you go-

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127361

[Heinz68]

9800GTX - $189
GTX260 - $299
GTX280 - $399
I just about agree with your estimate.
Specially with most the rumors predicting that the GTX280 is not going to be much longer the highest performance cards. There are always few buyers who are willing to pay extra for little performance gain.

The problem Nvidia has, the AMD/ATI can reduce the price on the 4000 series even more (if needed), since they have lower manufacturing cost.

[spajdr]

GTX 260 is already for 299 dollars as blacklash said, not only on newegg :)

[cvearl]

C if you want a GTX 260 to play with for 299usd straight up, there you go-

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127361

Hey thanks! That's $329 for that MSI?

But sadly newegg does not ship to Canada. However!... My local supplier www.memoryexpress.com has eVGA for $349. It's getting closer and closer.

Also I saw on Newegg they have the eVGA after discounts and MIR's the GTX260 at $299. THAT is where that card belongs. I bet it will be that soon here too.

My 4870 was $289 CDN. WOOT! Go exchange rate!

C.

[cvearl]

GTX 260 is already for 299 dollars as blacklash said, not only on newegg :)

Yup I am seeing some of those MIR deals out there. This is where it belonged. At $299 it's a viable alternative to the 4870 all the way. :)

Now if they can get the GTX280 to where it belongs. $469 I find on newegg is still a rip off. $399 and it's worth every penny. Although some of the people that bought a few weeks ago at $600 might not be impressed. :(

Good times!

C.

[jcossin]

I totally agree on the GTX280 being way overpriced. $399 is the right level when you compare performance to the GTX260 which is now at $299 via deals here and there.

Right now I'm very happy with my 9800GX2. With VSync ON and Triple Buffering ON I find the games I am playing regularly (World in Conflict, Witcher, Quake Wars) to be butter smooth and I'm looking forward to the competition between AMD and nVidia heading to the end of this year when refresh parts come out!

[hemmy]

Hey thanks! That's $329 for that MSI?

But sadly newegg does not ship to Canada. However!... My local supplier www.memoryexpress.com has eVGA for $349. It's getting closer and closer.

Also I saw on Newegg they have the eVGA after discounts and MIR's the GTX260 at $299. THAT is where that card belongs. I bet it will be that soon here too.

My 4870 was $289 CDN. WOOT! Go exchange rate!

C.

What exchange rate...a USD is still worth slightly more than a CAD

[saturnotaku]

My 4870 was $289 CDN. WOOT! Go exchange rate!

C.

CAD $289 = USD $285.

Big savings.

I remember back in the day when I could buy hockey jerseys in Ontario for CAD $40. That was when the exchange rate was like US $1 = CAD $1.50. The same jerseys in the US were $50. Good times. :(

[cvearl]

What exchange rate...a USD is still worth slightly more than a CAD

CAD $289 = USD $285.

Big savings.

I remember back in the day when I could buy hockey jerseys in Ontario for CAD $40. That was when the exchange rate was like US $1 = CAD $1.50. The same jerseys in the US were $50. Good times. :(

You two must be yungins... (no disrespect intended).

You have to understand that with the CAD exchange rate being even close to USD is a victory to a canuck hardware buyer from back in the day. Believe me. It seems paultry to you perhaps but maybe a decade of 70 cents on the dollar would give you a different point of view.

Had the 4870 come out 2 years ago? I would have had to pay more like $399. Hahaha. In general we always could add $100 - $150 to a video card to pick one up in Canuck land.

I guess you'd have to suffer through that to appreciate price parity. Until recently, Canadians were gouged and gouged hard on computer parts even on top of the 70 cents on the dollar crap we dealt with for years.

C.

[Heinz68]

Hey thanks! That's $329 for that MSI?

But sadly newegg does not ship to Canada. However!... My local supplier www.memoryexpress.com has eVGA for $349. It's getting closer and closer.

Also I saw on Newegg they have the eVGA after discounts and MIR's the GTX260 at $299. THAT is where that card belongs. I bet it will be that soon here too.

My 4870 was $289 CDN. WOOT! Go exchange rate!

C.
EVGA E-GEFORCE GTX 260 After Mail In Rebate: $305.99 CAD (+ $15 Next business day delivery)
That is the lowest priced 260 I found In Canada it is from NCIX.com (fully Canadian own) located in Vancouver BC.
Could not match the price locally in Toronto also locally I would have to pay extra 8% Ontario Provincial Sales tax.
You oil rich guys from Alberta don't have to worry about that. So quit complaining about the prices. :)

By the way if Newegg was shipping to Canada I would also have to pay the sales taxes they are collected at custom office on anything priced over $20.-
Canadian Sales Tax (GST) 5% plus 8% Ontario Sales Tax (PST) = Total 13% in sales taxes, aren't you guys from Alberta lucky paying only the 5%.

[Blacklash]

Hey thanks! That's $329 for that MSI?

But sadly newegg does not ship to Canada. However!... My local supplier www.memoryexpress.com has eVGA for $349. It's getting closer and closer.

Also I saw on Newegg they have the eVGA after discounts and MIR's the GTX260 at $299. THAT is where that card belongs. I bet it will be that soon here too.

My 4870 was $289 CDN. WOOT! Go exchange rate!

C.

When you see the price in the cart it was 299usd for the MSI. No rebates to fool with either. Looks like Newegg has it back to 329. People in US should watch that card, it will probably, "cool off" again.

I did forget they still don't ship to Canada.:(

Enjoy your HD 4870. Hopefully there will be a price reduction up there on some of the 260s too so you can get one to play with if that is what you desire.

[cvearl]

EVGA E-GEFORCE GTX 260 After Mail In Rebate: $305.99 CAD (+ $15 Next business day delivery)
That is the lowest priced 260 I found In Canada it is from NCIX.com (fully Canadian own) located in Vancouver BC.
Could not match the price locally in Toronto also locally I would have to pay extra 8% Ontario Provincial Sales tax.
You oil rich guys from Alberta don't have to worry about that. So quit complaining about the prices. :)

By the way if Newegg was shipping to Canada I would also have to pay the sales taxes they are collected at custom office on anything priced over $20.-
Canadian Sales Tax (GST) 5% plus 8% Ontario Sales Tax (PST) = Total 13% in sales taxes, aren't you guys from Alberta lucky paying only the 5%.


Hahaha. Us rich oil guys...

Trying to see if I can slip one under the wifedar....

C.

[particleman]

As the owner of both a 280GTX and 2 4870's in Crossfire, I disagree. The 280 GTX is worth as much as 2 4870's. With the 280GTX you get the fastest single chip solution available, meaning you avoid all the SLi/Crossfire issues. Also 2 4870's generate an incredible amount of heat and require a power supply even greater than that a 280GTX requires. I thought my 280GTX was a hot running card when I first bought it, but it is nothing compared to 2 4870's. The 2 4870s idle at 80 degrees all the time!

4870's in Crossfire has too many issues... I have had to totally rework the airflow in my case, it warms my entire room, it eats up a crazy amount of electricity, and doesn't work properly with some games.

I am much more satisfied with the $650 I spent on my 280GTX than the $600 I spent on my 2 4870s (the total cost is even more considering I had issues with my 975x board in Crossfire and had to get a x48 board).

With the 280GTX you just play what you want to play (assuming you don't get one with overheating issues). With 4870 Crossfire, you spend more time working on getting stuff working than playing.

[LordJuanlo]

I thought my 280GTX was a hot running card when I first bought it, but it is nothing compared to 2 4870's. The 2 4870s idle at 80 degrees all the time!

I noticed the same, the card was much hotter than my 8800GTX, there is something wrong at the driver that does not make the fan spin. Be sure to apply this trick (http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=115569), now my card idles at 48-50ºC. If you have 2 cards you should apply this ASAP. Fan works great at 35% speed, almost silent

[Maverickman]

I agree with those prices. The GTX 280 keeps dropping and can be bought for $479 after rebate at Newegg. If it eventually gets to $399, that would be a great deal vs. the HD 4870. Of course, ATI can also drop its prices. I LOVE competition!!!!

[lee63]

Wow, I wish I would have waited :( I guess that's what I get for being impatient :o

[MikeC]

When the 4870 reviews came out, I made it a point to check performance at 2560x1600 with 4x AA. At three different web sites (AnandTech, HotHardware, and The TechReport), the overall performance of the GeForce GTX 280 was 20% higher than the 4870, but there were only a couple of cases where the difference would have actually made an impact during gameplay. There was no doubt that NVIDIA would need to lower the price of the 280 in order to sell them.

However, I don’t believe that those reviews include results with transparency antialiasing (vs. adaptive AA) enabled, which begins to stress graphics cards that only have 512MB of memory. With these settings, there are cases where the average frame rate in games like Dark Messiah and Oblivion will drop into the single digits on 512MB graphics card. With all these variables, it becomes difficult to determine what the price of the GeForce GTX 280 “should be”, but I’m glad to see them dropping!

[ChrisRay]

The GTX 280 offers 1 gigabyte of memory. Which is a very sound and future proof investment. I am already seeing alot of games suffering on 512 cards. Both the GTX 260 and 280 have alot of leg room in regards to memory.

I just dont see the 280 going for 400 dollars with 1 gig of memory under its belt. Thats the kind of thing you pay premiums for. Personally the card that continues to impress me is the 260. It basically has that and a bag of chips going for it at its current price range. It simply confounds me that people haven't seen the value of a 896 Meg 448 bit card for 299 dollars. Specially when games like Crysis are already exceeding 512 megs of memory at 1600x1200 with VH and AA enabled.

Chris

[lee63]

Well if they drop any more I might get a 3rd (lee63)

[Xion X2]

The GTX 280 offers 1 gigabyte of memory. Which is a very sound and future proof investment. I am already seeing alot of games suffering on 512 cards. Both the GTX 260 and 280 have alot of leg room in regards to memory.

I just dont see the 280 going for 400 dollars with 1 gig of memory under its belt. Thats the kind of thing you pay premiums for. Personally the card that continues to impress me is the 260. It basically has that and a bag of chips going for it at its current price range. It simply confounds me that people haven't seen the value of a 896 Meg 448 bit card for 299 dollars. Specially when games like Crysis are already exceeding 512 megs of memory at 1600x1200 with VH and AA enabled.

Chris

The question, though, is if this "512 meg" ceiling is overadvertised by Nvidia and its promoters in order to redirect consumers toward the GTX line.

I've looked at a lot of benches so far and very rarely seen a case where this is a disadvantage for the 4870. I think that people are overlooking the amount of total memory bandwidth it has (which is actually more than GTX260) and focusing too much on VRAM capacity. At higher resolutions with high amounts of AA applied, overall memory bandwidth also plays a key factor in how a card scales.

Something else that's being overlooked in the VRAM discussion is the improvement ATI has made with AA. It appears the 4870 handles it better than the GTX line which would also play a factor.

Oblivion at 1920x1200, 8xAA:

http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/4796/aadz0.png (http://imageshack.us)

Source: Anandtech (www.anandtech.com)

[Redeemed]

As a long time PC Gamer I have been having a blast watching all the new cards hit the scene and the recent price drops. It's been an exciting month! (nana2)

After now reading a bazilion reviews for the AMD 4870 and 4850 and getting a 4870 myself, I have turned my attention to the GTX200's. Mainly because I like to own one of each camp and the GTX260 has been of great interrest to me. I enjoy being able to compare cards side by side.

That said, I still have a huge problem with the pricing structure out there. Even in light of price drops. The GTX200's HAVE to come down more!

I have been reading reviews on the GTX200's alot. They are great cards! The release of the 4000 series from AMD do NOT make them any less of a card. However, given current market conditions in the various segments, they are too costly still for what you get. :(

Here is my take on where the current line up needs to be to be a good value and competative. My suggested MSRP's...

9800GTX - $189
GTX260 - $299
GTX280 - $399

I did not include 9800GTX+ becuase it offers nearly nothing over the existing 9800GTX besides a touch lower power consumption. The 9800GTX was fine with a simple price adjustment. That was all that was needed.

Anyone not agree with this? And do we think nVidia will be able to?

C.Those prices seem alright excepte for the GTX280... I think it's should be closer to $499 honestly... it's a pretty powerful card... just not $650 powerful if you follow my meaning.

After the 4870X2 is released the GTX280 will not longer be the performance champ IMO. So it should be priced accordingly. I also don't think the 4870X2 will be significantly faster than the GTX280, therefore it should not cost significantly more. I can see the GTX280 going for $550 tops, with the 4870X2 going for right about the same price, if not $600.

Though, if nVidia did drop the price on the GTX280 to $400 I'd be extremely tempted to buy two (and eventually a third). Afterall, I did shell out $900 on launch day for my two 640MB GTSs and to this day the performance those two cards offer is still hard to beat. You want to talk about a good investment, Chris. ;) I'm sure the same could be said about the GTX280s (and even 260s) if the price is right. Though if nVidia dropped the GTX280 to $400, they might have a hard time selling the GTX260 if it stayed at $300. In that case the GTX260 might need to come down to about $250 to remain attrative. Anyhow, at these price points I'm sure nVidia wouldn't be making any money on the cards, so I doubt they'll ever go that low in the near future. Atleast not untill GT200b (the die shrink).

What surprises me, is that nVidia has dropped prices like crazy on the GT200 cards, yet AMD hasn't allowed their prices to budge. If they don't lower prices soon, with the rate nVidia is slashing prices the 4800 series might lose their advantage.

[Redraider]

Though, if nVidia did drop the price on the GTX280 to $400 I'd be extremely tempted to buy two (and eventually a third).

You must be running out of room in your barn out back with all these GPU's you plan to own.

:retard:

Nough said.

[methimpikehoses]

:headexplode:

[ChrisRay]

The question, though, is if this "512 meg" ceiling is overadvertised by Nvidia and its promoters in order to redirect consumers toward the GTX line.

This "Ceiling" is not an advertisement. And its very real. AA + Resolution eats framebuffer data. Lots of it. Specially beyond 4xAA. And games like Crysis with heavy usage of uncompressed normal map textures will eat up memory like there is no tommorrow. The 512 problem has been there "Long" before the HD4000 series ever existed. And could be seen on 9800GTX 8800GT cards in comparison to 8800GTX cards in specific cases.

As time has moved on these cases have increased. Memory amount can be a hard bottleneck. Specially when used. Once you exceed that framebuffer count. Your system memory starts acting as framebuffer. How ATI/Nvidia may allocate that system memory to framebuffer could very well be different. But the point is you cant get past the Zstorage of AA data. And its expensive.

Just some framebuffer numbers to chew on.

4xAA/16xCSAA @ 2560x1600 250 Megs

4xAA/16xCSAA @ 1920x1200 140 Megs

8xAA/16xQCSAA @ 2560x1600 370 Megs of Memory

8xAA/16xQ CSAA @ 1920x1200 280 megs of memory.

Thats just memory dedicated to Zstorage alone.. That does not include HDR which also increases storage data. It also doesnt include textures. Uncompressed ((or compressed Normal maps)) either. Its a pretty inescapable fact that once you run out of onboard memory. You start touching system memory. I'd rather not do that it any event. Using system memory as a means for storing framebuffer is one of the largest causes of micro stuttering that exists.

I just got finished testing Crysis on 9800GTX + SLI cards. And they cant even produce 15 FPS @ 1680x1050 with 16xCSAA and Very High settings due to running out of memory.