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|MaguS|
08-01-08, 04:57 PM
http://kotaku.com/5031985/rage-and-ids-lovehate-relationship-with-the-ps3

"Today we are saying that Rage may look better on the PS3 than the 360," he pointed out.

"We have concerns (about the 360 version of Rage) because of the economics of the platform in terms of what it costs to go to multiple discs," Hollenshead said. "There is disc space issue on the 360, and if we cant find a clever way or compromise with Microsoft to address that issue... even though we feel the 360 has superior hardware, the size limitations may mean that we may not have as much texture density or resolution on the 360 version.

"Let me be clear, this is an open question, we have these tech issues and we are working with Microsoft to solve them."

So as of right now, the PS3 version of RAGE will be superior to the X360 version unless Microsoft finds a way around their issue.

Heres also something I didn't know...
And the issue isn't just about the game being too big, Hollenshead says that developers lose upwards of 2 gigs of space per a disc because of information Microsoft requires developers to put on the discs.

So developers don't have all 9GB of the DVD available to them... they have to sacrafice 2GB of it.

One last thing...

"I think the blu-ray strategy and some of the other things they’ve done in terms how (the PS3) is positioned as a home entertainment device, shows that (Sony) is placing their bet on the PS3 as a marathon runner not a sprint and Microsoft was a little more focused on the short term goals."

Storage, and Microsoft's early insistence that the Xbox 360 wasn't going to run into issues with its DVD-based games, is a key win for Sony, he said.

/runs and hides

ViN86
08-01-08, 05:14 PM
dont care.

will be buying Wolfenstein on PC anyways.

what are they going to do about PC's? BD-ROM's are not the norm.

tornadog
08-01-08, 05:17 PM
constipation maybe???

pingu2
08-01-08, 05:22 PM
im sure the extra 4p a disc it would cost to produce on 2 discs is a BIG problem

Igor Vitaly
08-01-08, 05:23 PM
dont care.

will be buying Wolfenstein on PC anyways.

what are they going to do about PC's? BD-ROM's are not the norm.

Thats why it will ship on 3-DVD disc or 1 BD-ROM disc Vin (Vinny or Vin Diesel? is it you?)! :smoking:

Igor Vitaly
08-01-08, 05:24 PM
im sure the extra 4p a disc it would cost to produce on 2 discs is a BIG problem

Wrong, they have to pay royalty per-disc not per game hence why it isnt economically good for ID to have 3 discs for the xbox360 version.

Igor Vitaly
08-01-08, 05:27 PM
So as of right now, the PS3 version of RAGE will be superior to the X360 version unless Microsoft finds a way around their issue.

/runs and hides

There are 2 solutions, 1 MS drops the royalty fee for the third disc or ID somehow manages to create a better compression algorithm/or force the use of HDD to play. If no solution is found then I expect the textures and/or amount of unique textures to be less/lower-res for the xbox360 version. And no need to hide, come.. sit next to me I'll pass the pipe to you... its really good! :smoking:

|MaguS|
08-01-08, 05:27 PM
dont care.

will be buying Wolfenstein on PC anyways.

what are they going to do about PC's? BD-ROM's are not the norm.

Pcs can have large installs (10GB+) so its no issue for PCs.

Gaco
08-01-08, 07:08 PM
So what, he thinks that Xbox360's hardware is overall superior though PS3 indeniably have the disc storage advantage, an advantage so big that the graphics of the PS3 is going to be better. But still Xbox360's hardware is superior..? Argh can't get my head around it :|

Ninja Prime
08-01-08, 07:20 PM
So what, he thinks that Xbox360's hardware is overall superior though PS3 indeniably have the disc storage advantage, an advantage so big that the graphics of the PS3 is going to be better. But still Xbox360's hardware is superior..? Argh can't get my head around it :|

This is completely due to Carmack's Megatexture tech. Its a good idea in theory, but even Blu-Ray runs out of space with it if used in a large game. Interestingly enough, games have got along without it just fine and still look better than anything Carmack has shown us.

Megatexture is kinda like uncompressed audio, with a few more benefits. Some people think its great but really all it does is take up more space when there is better options.

npras42
08-01-08, 07:22 PM
Why do MS charge royalty per disc? Are they stupid or something or is it some ridiculous ploy to stop developers from making multi-disc games because Microsoft (God?) says you don't need more than 9GB for any worthwhile game?

Gaco
08-01-08, 07:27 PM
This is completely due to Carmack's Megatexture tech.
So megatextures are only possible on X360 or what?

Medion
08-01-08, 07:34 PM
Why do MS charge royalty per disc? Are they stupid or something or is it some ridiculous ploy to stop developers from making multi-disc games because Microsoft (God?) says you don't need more than 9GB for any worthwhile game?

They don't. MS charges a royalty per game. However, the DVD consortium gets a royalty per disc. Still, it takes something like 5 DVDs to equal the production cost and royalties of one Blu-Ray (Sony is a royalty *****).

The reason Carmack said multi-disc might not be feasible is because you need to have a lot of redundant data when spanning multiple discs. If this redundant data is more than 7 gigs, they gain absolutely nothing from going multi-disc, and it becomes impossible.

npras42
08-01-08, 07:46 PM
The royalty to the DVD consortium is negligible. According to Gamespot it is about manufacturing and an MS 'Disc fee':

There's so much world in the multiplatform game, in fact, that the content will not fit onto two Xbox 360 discs--some level of graphical fidelity will have to be sacrificed. Carmack said a three-disc version is simply not cost effective in terms of materials and manufacturing expenses, which are compounded by a hefty disc fee levied by Microsoft.

http://uk.gamespot.com/news/6195274.html?action=convert&om_clk=latestnews&tag=latestnews;title;0

|MaguS|
08-01-08, 08:20 PM
So what, he thinks that Xbox360's hardware is overall superior though PS3 indeniably have the disc storage advantage, an advantage so big that the graphics of the PS3 is going to be better. But still Xbox360's hardware is superior..? Argh can't get my head around it :|

Um he never said that, if anything he always said that the PS3 was more powerful theoretically but lacks in a good architecture design. You need to do more work on the PS3 to show the same quality on the X360 with less the work. It's about ease of development that makes the X360 prefered but I don't think any major developer has ever disagreed that the PS3 hardware is more powerful.

http://www.edge-online.com/features/john-carmack-talks-next-generation

"They are both powerful systems that are going to make excellent game platforms, but I have a bit of a preference for the 360’s symmetric CPU architecture and excellent development tools," he said. "The PS3 will have a bit more peak power, but it will be easier to exploit the available power on the 360. Our next major title is being focused towards simultaneous release on 360, PS3, and PC."

nekrosoft13
08-01-08, 08:26 PM
dont care.

will be buying Wolfenstein on PC anyways.

what are they going to do about PC's? BD-ROM's are not the norm.

there is no royalty fees on PC. 3+ DVDs then

Ninja Prime
08-01-08, 10:46 PM
So megatextures are only possible on X360 or what?

No, it works on anything. The problem is space. Megatextures are ludacriously large, most of the time this outweighs their benefits. Rage as an example, uses 65536 x 65536 x 32 bit textures. Thats 16 gigabytes of data, uncompressed. They had to invent a new compression scheme just to make it viable. Even at their new compression ratio of 10 to 1, you still need 1.6 gigs of space for the texture of just the ground portions of one level/area, when a game typically has at least 10 levels/areas, you're talking 16 gigs for just the levels. Then you still have characters, poly data, sound, code, ect.

Megatexture is neat but not really needed and wastes a lot of space.

Gabrobot
08-01-08, 11:03 PM
No, it works on anything. The problem is space. Megatextures are ludacriously large, most of the time this outweighs their benefits. Rage as an example, uses 65536 x 65536 x 32 bit textures. Thats 16 gigabytes of data, uncompressed. They had to invent a new compression scheme just to make it viable. Even at their new compression ratio of 10 to 1, you still need 1.6 gigs of space for the texture of just the ground portions of one level/area, when a game typically has at least 10 levels/areas, you're talking 16 gigs for just the levels. Then you still have characters, poly data, sound, code, ect.

Megatexture is neat but not really needed and wastes a lot of space.

Rage uses whatever textures the artists want to use, which in some cases is as much as 128k x 128k, but quite often smaller. Quake Wars uses 32k x 32k textures on its terrain, and these vary in file size from 140mb to 400mb. They could be compressed to be as small as 30-40mb, though they'd obviously look worse. I believe they also said id Tech 5 has a newer compression technology as well, so they may be able to compress things a lot more. I'm not sure how you can say it's really wasting space as so far things look fantastic (far better than the UE3 standard), and they seem to be moving to have far larger environments then anything they've previously done.

Lyme
08-02-08, 12:05 AM
So as of right now, the PS3 version of RAGE will be superior to the X360 version unless Microsoft finds a way around their issue.

The article says "may look", not "will be".

ViN86
08-02-08, 01:46 AM
there is no royalty fees on PC. 3+ DVDs then

ahh ok, gotcha.

well if MS was smart theyd wave the fees on the extra disc. but theyre greedy, so they wont lol.

msxyz
08-02-08, 01:51 AM
Bluray disc may hold more data but if the price to pay are crap seek times and almost mandatory installs on the hard disk (like many PS3 games) I'd rather play on a PC.

Gaco
08-02-08, 04:04 AM
Um he never said that, if anything he always said that the PS3 was more powerful theoretically but lacks in a good architecture design. You need to do more work on the PS3 to show the same quality on the X360 with less the work. It's about ease of development that makes the X360 prefered but I don't think any major developer has ever disagreed that the PS3 hardware is more powerful.

http://www.edge-online.com/features/john-carmack-talks-next-generation
He never said that? So what is "even though we feel the 360 has superior hardware" supposed to mean then?

No, it works on anything. The problem is space. Megatextures are ludacriously large, most of the time this outweighs their benefits. Rage as an example, uses 65536 x 65536 x 32 bit textures. Thats 16 gigabytes of data, uncompressed. They had to invent a new compression scheme just to make it viable. Even at their new compression ratio of 10 to 1, you still need 1.6 gigs of space for the texture of just the ground portions of one level/area, when a game typically has at least 10 levels/areas, you're talking 16 gigs for just the levels. Then you still have characters, poly data, sound, code, ect.

Megatexture is neat but not really needed and wastes a lot of space.
Wonder why he feel X360 hardware is superior when only the BD Disc has enough space for his darling megatextures?

Oh well I give up, must've misunderstood something somewhere...

Peoples-Agent
08-02-08, 07:00 AM
The bottom line is, if MS subsidise the cost of the extra disc the game will look better on the 360, otherwise it will look worse. Simple as.

ClosetFanBoy
08-02-08, 12:27 PM
I like how they say it will look "worse". So basically they are saying it will look like ass on the PS3, and worse on the 360. :p

Ninja Prime
08-02-08, 05:18 PM
He never said that? So what is "even though we feel the 360 has superior hardware" supposed to mean then?


Wonder why he feel X360 hardware is superior when only the BD Disc has enough space for his darling megatextures?

Oh well I give up, must've misunderstood something somewhere...

Hes saying X360's hardware is better because it is easier to use/access and has better tools, and a better GPU.