PDA

View Full Version : NV35 image quality post by Mike


Pages : [1] 2

monkeydust
05-13-03, 06:29 PM
Heh, I have read that thing 3 times and I still don't understand what it is saying.

The screenshot taken on a NV35 without 4X AA and 8X AF is more representative of what you would see with 4X AA and 8X AF on an NV35 (moreso than the one actually taken with 4X AA and 8X AF)? I don't understand. :(

(Wasn't sure if I should post this here or feedback forum)

The Baron
05-13-03, 06:30 PM
Maybe it's the whole screenshots don't tell the whole story again?

Hell if I know.

c4c
05-13-03, 06:31 PM
ditto...

wtf does that post mean?

lol

vampireuk
05-13-03, 06:34 PM
I understand it (I think) it's just a bit hard to explain:)

SurfMonkey
05-13-03, 06:35 PM
It means the screenshots you see in reviews don't accurately portray the actual image quality you see on the screen. It looks better in real life...

monkeydust
05-13-03, 06:37 PM
Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one that was confused by that.

It reminds me of the Magritte painting of the pipe with the words "Ceci n'est pas une pipe" written below it. :angel2:

MikeC
05-13-03, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by monkeydust
Heh, I have read that thing 3 times and I still don't understand what it is saying.

I though it was perfectly clear. Then again I was the one who wrote it :)

But I understand where you're coming from. Maybe we can work on re-wording it so it makes sense.

monkeydust
05-13-03, 07:28 PM
Can somebody explain to me how a screenshot can lie? Not meant to flame, I'm just curious. :)

volt
05-13-03, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by monkeydust
Can somebody explain to me how a screenshot can lie? Not meant to flame, I'm just curious. :)

UT2003 + my Ti4600 with Antialiasing. Screenshots weren't antialiased at all.

digitalwanderer
05-13-03, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by monkeydust
It reminds me of the Magritte painting of the pipe with the words "Ceci n'est pas une pipe" written below it. :angel2:

I thought a margarita was a drink...how did it paint ANYTHING? :eek2:

monkeydust
05-13-03, 07:58 PM
I think you have had plenty of margaritas for one evening, digitalwander.


Rene Magritte (http://www.uwrf.edu/history/prints/magritte-pipe.html)

MikeC
05-13-03, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by monkeydust
Can somebody explain to me how a screenshot can lie? Not meant to flame, I'm just curious. :)

Graphics cards can use "post processsing" filters that work outside of the frame buffer where images are normally captured from. Articles I've read on the subject have referred to these technique as "screen space" processing.

Post filtering became a popular topic of discussion after 3dfx's implementation of 22-bit color on their Voodoo graphics cards and NVIDIA's Quincunx antialiasing.

http://www.reactorcritical.com/review-voodoo5/review-voodoo5_2.shtml

http://www.beyond3d.com/articles/3dfx22bit/index4_1.php

monkeydust
05-13-03, 08:13 PM
Thanks, Mike! :)

PreservedSwine
05-13-03, 08:18 PM
I just saw this at Rage3D, thoughts?


Originally posted by Doomtrooper
The difference in precision, the old FX cards will continue to get speed through the Nv30 profile and still evident here.

It appears Nvidia has removed the integer pipeline for the NV35 so it is full FP like the 9700/9800. So there is no excuse for the Nv35 to be running the NV30 Pipeline...period.

From Beyond3D:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I actually got reply on this from NVidia 2 hours ago.
It actually seams that integer logic is gone from NV35 pixel shaders. It is capable of 3 floating point (and it doesn't care that much about fp16 vs. fp32 either) instructions per pipe per clock (12 floating point instructions per clock total) or 2 floating point instructions + 2 texture look-ups per pipe per clock.)


http://www.hardware.fr/medias/photos_news/00/06/IMG0006200_1.jpg

schuey74
05-13-03, 08:38 PM
Means you might be screwed if you bought a 5800. Looks like the 5900 is fully DX9 and the 5800 isn't and therefor renders in Int12. The ugly image on the far right is result.

Of course it could just be that the 44.03s were just fully optimized for the NV35 and the reviews. And this problem will be solved in Det 50.xxs.

Time will tell....................

madk0w
05-13-03, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by monkeydust
Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one that was confused by that.

It reminds me of the Magritte painting of the pipe with the words "Ceci n'est pas une pipe" written below it. :angel2:

you're kidding you don't get that ?

it's pretty simple: margritte painted a pipe and also painted this is not a pipe, simply because it is the drawing of a pipe, not actually a real life pipe. the only the that could get you stuck is just why margritte painted that.


,mk

monkeydust
05-13-03, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by madk0w
you're kidding you don't get that ?

it's pretty simple: margritte painted a pipe and also painted this is not a pipe, simply because it is the drawing of a pipe, not actually a real life pipe. the only the that could get you stuck is just why margritte painted that.


,mk

Hehe, I wasn't saying I didn't get THAT. I was alluding to the idea that things aren't always as they appear.

digitalwanderer
05-13-03, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by madk0w
the only the that could get you stuck is just why margritte painted that.

Simple! It was all the margaritas!

Right? :eek2:

Nv40
05-13-03, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by schuey74
Means you might be screwed if you bought a 5800. Looks like the 5900 is fully DX9 and the 5800 isn't and therefor renders in Int12. The ugly image on the far right is result.

Of course it could just be that the 44.03s were just fully optimized for the NV35 and the reviews. And this problem will be solved in Det 50.xxs.

Time will tell....................


you guys are so fast.. jumping to conclusions...
those sceenshots Prove nothing of Nv30 presicion in Doom3..
the Nv30 can render at lower and higher presision that the R300/350
and that is a fact.

IF the Nv30 is using INt12 (which is even better than the presicion
of any directx8 card ). or using 64bits (Fp16) ,and there is no noticeable decrease in IQ in Doom3 againts the radeon R300 96bits...
then i see no problem with that .

the only "problem" will be for benchmarking apples vs apples..
but anyway doing that with AA/AF is not apples vs apples either.
what people do is aproximations.
so there is no way that with ATI and Nvdia can do the same presision.
because Nvidia cannot run at ATI precision ,but only at lower or Higher
precision.

according to J.C. in his latest plan he told that the diferences between both
cards using Fp16 or Fp24 *in his GAMe* is invisible presicion to the
eyes of most people.

Kruno
05-14-03, 12:00 AM
Originally posted by SurfMonkey
It means the screenshots you see in reviews don't accurately portray the actual image quality you see on the screen. It looks better in real life...

They never do. What do you think I was trying to say over the last few days. :lol:

StealthHawk
05-14-03, 12:10 AM
Screenshots can also make things look better, and in the actual game it looks worse, because of differences between static screens and motion.

ATI's Performance AF is an example of this. Looks great in screenshots, not as good in practice.

marcocom
05-14-03, 12:13 AM
ya totally. its important that one understand HOW a screenshot is captured and from what point in the pipeline it is captured from.

The Voodoo5 had the same issue because of its T-buffer - simply, screenshots were incapable of portraying the final picture that is sent to the monitor.

its good that this is finally coming up.

Matthyahuw
05-14-03, 01:34 AM
can someone explain this?

http://www.blynk.net/index.php

EDIT: Looking closer, they are ripping MY posts from Envy as well!

Kruno
05-14-03, 01:37 AM
I can't find any rendering errors of it's FSAA implementations while playing games.

If you are talking about texture shimmering (which I found occurs rarely in some games like SS) then put down the mip map bias to "performance" as I have. 8x AF on R300 with that settings looks similar in game as my NV20 with a LOD of 0 and 8x AF.

Problem that some people may see is the amount of "blur" is too much. Hence why I tell them to play with 16x AF.

Of course I like no AF with QCX AA at 320x240 16bpp. :lol:

DadGT
05-14-03, 07:03 AM
Quote from the [H]ardOCP review:

Let it be known that we paid very close attention to our screen shot process and that our screen shot do represent the images that we observed on our monitors.

Interesting. I remember reading that the first day. Why did they feel it necessary to mention that? As others have said, since the days of 3dfx, I haven't seen post-frame buffer processing much. But it appears something is amuck at the Circle K.

P.S. Just above this line are three links to .jpg screen shoots with identical pixel areas (1024x378) very near identical views with very different file sizes (nv8x=49,982 bytes, nv6sx=70,068 bytes, ati6x=98,092 bytes).