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gdphk
08-18-08, 11:03 AM
http://channel.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=14993&page=2

NVIDIA speaks
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Facebook Digg Slashdot Newsvine Delicious Stumble The two people we speak to are Nick Stam (pictured), the technical marketing director for GeForce and Bryan Del Rizzo, PR manager in the US. We start by asking them what they feel about losing the performance leadership.

"Is that interesting?" says Del Rizzo. "To some people maybe, but it took two of their GPUs to beat one of ours. We have had dual GPU cards and it's feasible that it may happen again."


That last point was intriguing. In our review of the 4870 X2, HEXUS.net editor Tarinder Sandhu said: "We'll have to wait for the GTX 200-series to go on a process diet, to 55nm, and then, just perhaps, we'll see a GX2 based on GeForce GTX 260."

While we're unable to draw either of them on whether or not this will happen, when we ask them if they expect to regain the performance leadership this year, Stam says "Yes".

That's as much as you're going to get on that topic for now and we move swiftly back to the 4870 X2. "Is that product the best product you can buy for a PC?" asks Del Rizzo. "A lot of people care about power consumption. Two GTX 260s have lower power consumption than one 4870 X2. In the Asia-Pacific region, for example, they're sensitive about power consumption."

Stam is keen to point out that he thinks NVIDIA's multi GPU platform has advantages over AMD's. "We've done our own testing of SLI vs Crossfire and we see a lot of issues with Crossfire. SLI is far more developed and doesn't have as many issues."

http://bbs.expreview.com/images/smilies/default/victory.gifhttp://bbs.expreview.com/images/smilies/default/lol.gif

Tr1cK
08-18-08, 11:07 AM
Stam is keen to point out that he thinks NVIDIA's multi GPU platform has advantages over AMD's. "We've done our own testing of SLI vs Crossfire and we see a lot of issues with Crossfire. SLI is far more developed and doesn't have as many issues."

Looks like NVs marketing is throwing stones in a glass house. They have just as many issues from what I have seen.

nekrosoft13
08-18-08, 11:14 AM
Looks like NVs marketing is throwing stones in a glass house. They have just as many issues from what I have seen.

true, there is only one advantage, ability to make your own SLi profiles.

buicks suck
08-18-08, 11:20 AM
I honestly don't give a damn about performance considering how ati only uses brilinear filtering. That's wholly unacceptable.

hell_of_doom227
08-18-08, 11:22 AM
Never had crossfire, but i can tell you that SLI works like charm.

gdphk
08-18-08, 11:27 AM
GTX 260 GX2 will kicks the 4870x2's Ass :nutkick:

Tr1cK
08-18-08, 11:42 AM
I honestly don't give a damn about performance considering how ati only uses brilinear filtering. That's wholly unacceptable.

Where the F do you pull this crap out of? Go away.

Is that some sort of bi- tri- combination? I'm sure not manufacturers support BRIlinear.

Madpistol
08-18-08, 12:27 PM
I honestly don't give a damn about performance considering how ati only uses brilinear filtering. That's wholly unacceptable.

Where did you get that BS from? The IQ of ATI cards is exactly the same as Nvidia cards currently. That means they use bilinear, trilinear, and anisotropic filtering as their methods of texture filtering.

Serrasalmus
08-18-08, 02:08 PM
I honestly don't give a damn about performance considering how ati only uses brilinear filtering. That's wholly unacceptable.

this guy fell off the retarded train looks like....

Medion
08-18-08, 02:35 PM
GTX 260 GX2 will kicks the 4870x2's Ass

The GTX260 is currently a bit behind a single HD4870 in performance, so no, not likely.

Where the F do you pull this crap out of? Go away.

Is that some sort of bi- tri- combination? I'm sure not manufacturers support BRIlinear.

Where did you get that BS from? The IQ of ATI cards is exactly the same as Nvidia cards currently. That means they use bilinear, trilinear, and anisotropic filtering as their methods of texture filtering.

"Brilinear" filtering is an optimization meant to give near tr-linear quality, at a near bi-linear performance hit. During the GeForce FX days, NV did this whenever you picked trilinear as an option, and they caught hell for it. With the 6/7 series, it was the default option, but going to HQ settings removed it.

ATI then started using the optimization on the Radeon 9600 series (the 9700/9800 don't use it). In a test, it shows up as full tri-linear, but in a game, it uses bri-linear. It was a cheat on their part, and not one of their better days. It was discovered when people found out through benchmarks that when using colored mipmaps, ATI cards would offer worse performance.

This was confirmed, again, on the Radeon 9600XT (the only r300 card to use it), as well as the entire r400 line. I haven't heard of anything on this subject with r500 and beyond. But, the only way to see it was in benchmarks. The quality difference really is negligible. Performance increases can be substantial in some cases though.

SH64
08-18-08, 02:36 PM
Just bring us a faster single GPU solution instead of xxxxX2's ..

Tr1cK
08-18-08, 02:42 PM
stuff

This all may be true 5 years ago when NV was doing some sneaky optimizations as well. Today it is totally irrelevant.

buicks suck
08-18-08, 02:46 PM
The GTX260 is currently a bit behind a single HD4870 in performance, so no, not likely.





"Brilinear" filtering is an optimization meant to give near tr-linear quality, at a near bi-linear performance hit. During the GeForce FX days, NV did this whenever you picked trilinear as an option, and they caught hell for it. With the 6/7 series, it was the default option, but going to HQ settings removed it.

ATI then started using the optimization on the Radeon 9600 series (the 9700/9800 don't use it). In a test, it shows up as full tri-linear, but in a game, it uses bri-linear. It was a cheat on their part, and not one of their better days. It was discovered when people found out through benchmarks that when using colored mipmaps, ATI cards would offer worse performance.

This was confirmed, again, on the Radeon 9600XT (the only r300 card to use it), as well as the entire r400 line. I haven't heard of anything on this subject with r500 and beyond. But, the only way to see it was in benchmarks. The quality difference really is negligible. Performance increases can be substantial in some cases though.
benchmarks @ beyond 3d indicate that ati's hq af is inferior to the 8, 9, and GTX 200 series HQ AF.

cvearl
08-18-08, 03:29 PM
benchmarks @ beyond 3d indicate that ati's hq af is inferior to the 8, 9, and GTX 200 series HQ AF.

I own both brands and have first hand "eye test" knowledge.

Say whatever you want but it's very much a draw in the games I and other members of my family play.

There are a few games where you can say... hey. This looks better on ATI and a few games the other way and the vast majority of the rest would fail in a blind taste test using the most rabid of fanboys.

Your comments = teh false.

C.

cvearl
08-18-08, 03:33 PM
Oh and anyone that was suprised that nVidia could, and likely will, re-capture the performance crown is either stupid or is new to the video card world.

These two companies leapfrog eachother all the time and nVidia just happens to have been stronger the last 2 years to some degree with ATI playing a little "late to the game catchup". They (ATI) jumped em this round and nVidia will jump em again soon.

It's called inevitable. It's not a question of IF, but WHEN. To coin a phrase.

Then if ATI has their act together, as it appears they do, they will pop out some months later with something again.

C.

Medion
08-18-08, 03:47 PM
This all may be true 5 years ago when NV was doing some sneaky optimizations as well. Today it is totally irrelevant.

And I stated as much, that it was an issue with GF FX and R400, but nothing recent.

benchmarks @ beyond 3d indicate that ati's hq af is inferior to the 8, 9, and GTX 200 series HQ AF.

While this is true, it takes a keen eye on the benchmark to notice the difference. In real work, it's too close to call.

I own both brands and have first hand "eye test" knowledge.

Say whatever you want but it's very much a draw in the games I and other members of my family play.

There are a few games where you can say... hey. This looks better on ATI and a few games the other way and the vast majority of the rest would fail in a blind taste test using the most rabid of fanboys.

Your comments = teh false.

C.

Actually CV, it's been proven that NV G80 and beyond AF is actually superior to ATI's implementation, but by a nutt-hair at best. It is possible to see the difference with colored mip-maps, but in a real world gaming environment, anyone who claims to see a difference is likely lying. I think NV overreacted a bit due to all of the G70 shimmering complaints. They could likely "downgrade" to ATI's AF implementation, get the same quality visuals, and get a small performance boost.

namuk
08-18-08, 04:15 PM
all nvidia need to do is a 280 gx2 = job done . but i like this competition it is first time in ages that ati was the fastest but it did take 2 ati chips to beat one single chip . and i will be suprised if they do a overclocked version of that x2 card with out updating the cooler as it runs hot at idle

Intel17
08-18-08, 04:35 PM
Well, yes, it took two ATI chips to beat a single nVidia, but the prices are about the same, so for all intents and purposes, ATI has won this round.

namuk
08-18-08, 04:37 PM
Well, yes, it took two ATI chips to beat a single nVidia, but the prices are about the same, so for all intents and purposes, ATI has won this round.


good got tobe for the best

nekrosoft13
08-18-08, 04:39 PM
Well, yes, it took two ATI chips to beat a single nVidia, but the prices are about the same, so for all intents and purposes, ATI has won this round.

GTX280 = about 400
4870x2 = about 550

prices are not about the same

SH64
08-18-08, 04:52 PM
GTX280 = about 400
4870x2 = about 550

prices are not about the same
Plus more power draw & heat.

Medion
08-18-08, 05:00 PM
Plus more power draw & heat.

I don't think a performance enthusiast or hardcore gamer will care about power draw, and they'll mitigate the heat as best they can.

There are two crowds here, the ones who care about best bang for the buck, in which case, neither card is very popular, or those that care about pure performance. For those that care about pure performance, the GTX280 wins for a single GPU, and the HD4870 wins for a Crossfire setup, especially on one card.

buicks suck
08-18-08, 06:30 PM
And I stated as much, that it was an issue with GF FX and R400, but nothing recent.



While this is true, it takes a keen eye on the benchmark to notice the difference. In real work, it's too close to call.



Actually CV, it's been proven that NV G80 and beyond AF is actually superior to ATI's implementation, but by a nutt-hair at best. It is possible to see the difference with colored mip-maps, but in a real world gaming environment, anyone who claims to see a difference is likely lying. I think NV overreacted a bit due to all of the G70 shimmering complaints. They could likely "downgrade" to ATI's AF implementation, get the same quality visuals, and get a small performance boost.
I notice shimmering with my parents 1900xtx at hq af, and with catalyst ai disabled and adaa enabled.

To me the difference in the aftester look pretty big to me.

I won't be surprised though if nvidia does downgrade to ati's "hq" af. I'm sure they would've had they known that so many people are unfortunately indifferent to nvidia's superior af.

Keep in mind, ati didn't have the best filtering in mind with the r500 b/c there's no hw filtering for fp16 textures. it does it thru shaders. less than near perfect filtering is unnacceptable, imo.

MisterMister
08-18-08, 07:18 PM
Well, I look at it this way... since the 4870X2 is close to $600 USD; Nvidia has some room to play with in an upcoming 200GTX card in terms of production/sales cost, while maintaining a competitive edge.

Imagine for a minute, if you will, that Nvidia does the following:

2x 55nm GTX260 (I say 260 vs 280 to help keep heat and costs down) GPUs on a single PCB, running @ something like ~700-740+Mhz.

Add in 2x 1GB 512-bit GDDR5 VRAM running @ ~3600+Mhz.

Then slap on an effective cooling solution to keep temps down, allowing for high stock clocks and even higher overclocks.

Finally, price said card @ ~$600 USD.

I feel that this would be more then enough to put a major hurting on the ATi HD4870-X2 both in performance and sales. Plus, not only would Nvidia have the edge in pure power but (probably) in the software department (drivers) as well. Those factors combined could spell the death kneel for the R700 boards less ATi steps it's game up by quite a bit.

I, for one, would be more then willing to pony up over half a grand for such an awesome piece of tech, that much is certain. I am also more then sure that most anyone looking to get the bleeding edge PC components would be all over that card like Oprah on a baked ham.

...then, of course, you also have the ability to add a second or even third card for SLI setups. I can only guess what sort of performance figures one would see with a quad SLI setup with the above mentioned vaporware let alone THREE of them SLI'd together, when paired with a powerful CPU! Now THAT'S a Crysis killer for sure.

What say you?

Amaury
08-18-08, 07:36 PM
I'm hoping Nvidia releases a faster card soon. I think the 48070x2 is an awesome card but I like Nvidia's recent work on gpu accelerated physx and CUDA supported apps, especially on video encoders. And their upcoming Forceware 1.80 drivers that I heard will finally fix SLI enabled multi monitor display so you don't have to turn on/off sli whenever you want to use multiple monitiors.