View Full Version : Quak issue.. one last time the Difinitive Truth Thread.
digitalwanderer
05-17-03, 03:22 AM
Originally posted by volt
How is that a cheat if you can't see it, or can you?
AAAAAARRRGGGHHH!!!!!!
<sigh>
Because it deliberately bypass the intent of the test which is to render a certain scene in a certain way so as to judge speed/quality. By using an "optimization" which bypass the rules of the benchmark it invalidates the results.
Even though the "optimization" is not visually apparent, it's still a deception and the only benefit of it seems to be to fradulently boost their 3dm2k3 score to sell more cards on the false claim that they "whomped" ATi's best at 3dm2k3.
</sigh>
EDITED BITS: "The faster we go, the rounder we get....Doctor, this circular logic is getting me dizzy!" ;)
Originally posted by volt
3DMark...
apparently tell-tale signs == dancing pixels...
but even so... just because you can't see it doesn't make it right :)
the drivers are culling scenes and therefore the benchmark is not being conducted in the way it is designed to be conducted.. and the short-cuts taken appear to be in order to gain a performance boost by doing less work...
a cheat is a cheat... since now... with ET and b3d screenies... it CAN be seen :D
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
AAAAAARRRGGGHHH!!!!!!
<sigh>
Because it deliberately bypass the intent of the test which is to render a certain scene in a certain way so as to judge speed/quality. By using an "optimization" which bypass the rules of the benchmark it invalidates the results.
Even though the "optimization" is not visually apparent, it's still a deception and the only benefit of it seems to be to fradulently boost their 3dm2k3 score to sell more cards on the false claim that they "whomped" ATi's best at 3dm2k3.
</sigh>
/me smacks digi over the head with a bottle of smirnoff...
/me pours a 50-50 redbull/vodka concoction...
drink up m8... you look like you need it...
I don't have a problem at all if it doesn't change the quality. But again, I haven't seen it.
StealthHawk
05-17-03, 06:38 AM
Originally posted by volt
How is that a cheat if you can't see it, or can you?
Yes, there are some side effects which degrade IQ.
Discussion (http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11786)
Hanners
05-17-03, 06:53 AM
Originally posted by volt
How is that a cheat if you can't see it, or can you?
Some of you guys should be lawyers....
'How can you say my client murdered anybody, nobody saw him. Agreed, his fingerprints were found on the murder weapon and the victims blood was all over his clothes but nobody saw it, so it didn't happen. In fact, I put it to you that the victim isn't actually dead, merely faking his death in the morgue right now...'
PreservedSwine
05-17-03, 11:35 AM
Thanks Hellbinder, I wasn't aware the "quack" design had been in the previous 8 or so driver releases, yet it only showed an issue on the R8500.
The Baron
05-17-03, 12:23 PM
'How can you say my client murdered anybody, nobody saw him. Agreed, his fingerprints were found on the murder weapon and the victims blood was all over his clothes but nobody saw it, so it didn't happen. In fact, I put it to you that the victim isn't actually dead, merely faking his death in the morgue right now...'
Why, Schrodinger's Cat, of course.
Originally posted by PreservedSwine
Thanks Hellbinder, I wasn't aware the "quack" design had been in the previous 8 or so driver releases, yet it only showed an issue on the R8500.
not sure of the exact number of driver revisions this was in... but yes... it was there and present BEFORE... :)
TheFrnchTickler
05-17-03, 03:25 PM
not sure of the exact number of driver revisions this was in... but yes... it was there and present BEFORE...
Hmm... The old 'quack' debate comes back up. As someone that experienced it firsthand (being one of the very first retail 8500 card owners back in Oct/Nov of 2001) I'll share the way I remember the experience.
First off, the 'optimisation' wasn't just that, it was a cheat. The fact that the quake string was in the drivers for several revisions before indicates they were playing the same game with the 8500s going back quite a way. After all, these cards aren't just brought to retail market overnight.
The problem wasn't manifest in quake3 in all situations, it targetted specific textures, and left all the others alone, [H] had a good pictoral analysis of it back then, but I'm not going to bother attempting to dig it up, since it doubtless wouldn't convince anyone of anything they aren't already convinced of.
The textures that were targetted were the ones that were used most heavily in the quake3 pre-recorded timedemos. The 8500's performed shockingly well in the first benchmarks but didn't hold up to the same standards in the next driver set: http://www6.tomshardware.com/graphic/20011123/radeon8500-07.html
The performance difference isn't that great, but it's not what some lead people to believe (that the newer fixed drivers were just as fast or faster).
In any case, I had that radeon 8500 for too long, and ended up replacing it with a geforce4 card. Thankfully I didn't have any of the issues with strange game stutters, dvd player problems, or system crashes that I experienced with the radeon 8500.
Right now I'm using a Radeon 9700, and though it's a regular marvel of engineering, its drivers are still relative crap compared to what I was used to from nVidia. That's just fine when you're the fastest on the block, but now that nVidia has swung back around to the lead in performance, they hold both crowns, driver stability (not to mention actually making XF86 4.3 drivers at all, last time I checked, ati still only had up to 4.2) and overall raster speed.
Also, anyone that 'remembers' the days of the 8500 differently than me, please refrain from flaming, it really doesn't serve a point.
digitalwanderer
05-17-03, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by TheFrnchTickler
Also, anyone that 'remembers' the days of the 8500 differently than me, please refrain from flaming, it really doesn't serve a point.
I remember the days of the 8500, I remember them QUITE well thank you! :mad:
And I completely agree with ya. :lol:
I'm not a fan of the 8500, and I do think ATi cheated in the quake/quack thing...but I don't think that changes the fact that nVidia is cheating too.
(I also take issue with your opinion of the current driver situation, but that's just an opion-thing. ;) )
_leech_
05-18-03, 12:54 AM
Well, my 2cents...
Normally, that Q3 mip-map thing would be a pretty legitimate reason and a definately bug, but people forget the main issue as to why this is considered a cheat: how could simply changing the name of the quake EXE "fix" it? I think that was the main reason if i remember correctly...
bloodbob
05-18-03, 01:49 AM
First ATI cheated
Second nvidia cheated
Third I generally stand up for kyle but you ati ppl can bash him hmm he seems to get everyone bashing him used to be nvidia peeps( i.e. mikeC ) bashing him for reviewing 3dfx.
Originally posted by bloodbob
First ATI cheated
Second nvidia cheated
Third I generally stand up for kyle but you ati ppl can bash him hmm he seems to get everyone bashing him used to be nvidia peeps( i.e. mikeC ) bashing him for reviewing 3dfx.
Kyle is just a guy with a web page...nothing more. He likes being notorious, he likes being the topic of discussion. It gets his website hits. I find it a tradjedy that people hold his oppions and standards so highly. The truly deep seated driver issues that are being dicussed right now are beyond his knowledge and understanding anyways.
GlowStick
05-21-03, 01:46 AM
When i clicked on this thread did i enter a time warp back to when ever those 2 cards were considerd 'new'?
Rogozhin
05-21-03, 02:00 AM
I'm not flaming anyone but my radeon 8500LE (which I bought in december 2001, and i didn't play quake 3) was just as good or better than my two geforce 4tis at 1024X768 with 2x AA and 8x AF.
Infact those geforces couldn't even run decent frames with those settings.
rogo
Hellbinder isn't this the wrong forum for this?
Regarding the 8500 issue. I bought mine when one cost 160$ and just before the ti4x00 series was released and cat2.1 was released. And the issues was probably solved by then cause i had no issues.
Originally posted by micron
Kyle is just a guy with a web page...nothing more. He likes being notorious, he likes being the topic of discussion. It gets his website hits. I find it a tradjedy that people hold his oppions and standards so highly. The truly deep seated driver issues that are being dicussed right now are beyond his knowledge and understanding anyways.
I still laugh a touch when he came on techTV and WEIGHED the nv30 lol...
that had to be one of the most classic moments in hardware revieing history... on the web or anywhere else...
the fact that I consider him a bit nutty has no bearing on me finding him funny once in a while...
nvnews-reader
05-21-03, 04:53 PM
So they got away with being a quack for 8 generations. Nice. I wonder what they are up too now. Character doesn't change once a cheat always a cheat.
SlyBoots
05-21-03, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by nvnews-reader
So they got away with being a quack for 8 generations. Nice. I wonder what they are up too now. Character doesn't change once a cheat always a cheat.
The fact the R100 series ran it with no IQ loss just sails right over your head:rolleyes:
The Baron
05-21-03, 05:38 PM
Except for the fact that drivers for the R100 still suck.
Don't deny it, I put one in my sister's box a month ago. Only video card I've ever bought from a store. heh.
SlyBoots
05-21-03, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by The Baron
Except for the fact that drivers for the R100 still suck.
Don't deny it, I put one in my sister's box a month ago. Only video card I've ever bought from a store. heh.
I think mine is still running the 7075 drivers. Worked just fine with 98se, haven't used it for gaming in ages though. Dedicated DVD box now:cool:
Edit: I'm referring to the Radeon 64 @ 183/183 I got in July 2000:)
Originally posted by nvnews-reader
So they got away with being a quack for 8 generations. Nice. I wonder what they are up too now. Character doesn't change once a cheat always a cheat. You sound like my nine year old!...and she probably know's more about the world of 3D then you also!
ChrisRay
05-21-03, 11:03 PM
As much as I hate Kyle from hardocp he's not really the only one who knew about these issues,
Nvidia also sent this to Larrs of Toms Hardware, Then tom sent it over to hardocp,
Dunno Tom had an article called the battle of hypocrits, Kinda funny if you think about it. :)
No one likes Kyle tho heh
Originally posted by ChrisRay
As much as I hate Kyle from hardocp he's not really the only one who knew about these issues,
Nvidia also sent this to Larrs of Toms Hardware, Then tom sent it over to hardocp,
Dunno Tom had an article called the battle of hypocrits, Kinda funny if you think about it. :)
No one likes Kyle tho heh
eh no...
consider reading on this matter... its a little excerpt written by toms... and what HE did and WHY he didnt post about the 'hacks' and what he thought of kyle on this matter...
tom did not send anything to kyle.. nvidia mailed a bunch of review sites with the same material... hardocp decided to go through with it..
there is no information out there stating thomas sent kyle this information...
here is the link to refresh your memory...
http://www4.tomshardware.com/blurb/20020825/index.html
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