Quak issue.. one last time the Difinitive Truth Thread.

[Hellbinder]

I opened up a discussion on this at Rage3d.

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33685988

Here is my opening statement.

It seems that most people still do not know the truth about the Quak issue.

yes Ati was using application detection, but the *optimization* had been in no less than 7 previeous driver prior to the release of the 8500. the problem was that the exsisting optimization caused an issue on the 8500 wich ATi did not apparently notice. However Nvidia Knew about it and provided the info to [H] for exposure as a *cheat*. Which everyone still repeats to this day. Is application Detection bad?? Only if it intentionally affects the game in an improper way, or intentionally changes the Dynamics of what the application is trying to do. Technically, this is a similar issue to the 3dmark Nvidia scandal. However the difference being. The application detection was present in the driver for a long time, and never affected the game adversly. The Issue was addressed inside of 3 weeks with no performance loss. Later the Quake scores have increased steadily over time.

What is even worse and Doomtrooper please help me out here with a link. When [H] posted their Radeon Vs GF2 article a year before it was apparent that Nvidia had reduced texture Quality in the ENTIRE GAME to boost performance. But No one called it a cheat. ATi's mistake only affected 5 textures in the entire game. But becuase Kyle is best friends with Brian Burke at Nvidia they have a history of Being Nvidia little dirty work boys while glossing over any inconsistancy with Nvidia.

They have gotten better recently i must admit. But every once in a while they still revert to Nvidias little ***** mode. No i dont mean that they have to favor ATi all the time.. Be fair. Its just that when they suddely revert to little Nvidiots it is sinkeningly obvious.

[the floor is now open to anyone with insider info, pertinent info or opinions on the matter]

Here is Doomtroopers kind linkage on the matter

BTW the author of this is not me, but someone here on Rage3D:

http://www.geocities.com/radtruth/p1.htm

Kyles Joy

http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTEx

The Irony-The quake Reference is in this driver

http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTEzLDM=

Quack looks good compared to this mess

http://www.3dvelocity.com/reviews/gffx5800u/gffx_5.htm


the Floor is now open.

[Sazar]

there was no real need for this to be brought up again :)

but then again there is a need for clarity :)

and yes... AFAIK this is pretty much what happened...

if b3d corroborates it... I am sold... and they have... hence I am :D

[Matthyahuw]

ATI is TEH SUK :p

[digitalwanderer]

Well, I'm pretty sure nVidia will come up with an excuse that's almost as good....someday. :rolleyes: :lol:

horse + dead + beat = ?

[creedamd]

Originally posted by digitalwanderer
Well, I'm pretty sure nVidia will come up with an excuse that's almost as good....someday. :rolleyes: :lol:

horse + dead + beat = ?

deadbeat horse?

somebody beat the crap out of that goodfornuthin horse!

[Hellbinder]

This is simply not a dead issue. It also raises the point that ATi is usually referenced as the cheater, becuase of Quak... But.. The Evidence seems to be that Nvidia has been Cheating for a much longer time and it still continues to this day.

Look what they did in that Radeon GF2 article. They *CLEARLY* reduced the Texture quality in the *ENTIRE* game. The Fact is Nvidia has been outright decieving people for a long long time. while Ati are the ones with the bad rap. All becuase of Nvidias continuous unethical Behavior.

[digitalwanderer]

Originally posted by Hellbinder
This is simply not a dead issue.

Yeah, I know...I was just setting you up so you'd have a good reason to say that.

I'll keep pitching 'em, you keep hitting 'em home. ;)

[Sazar]

Originally posted by digitalwanderer
Yeah, I know...I was just setting you up so you'd have a good reason to say that.

I'll keep pitching 'em, you keep hitting 'em home. ;)

you sir.. are pure evil :D

I am sure you are auditioning for the excorcist returns - memoirs of a possessed forum dweller...

:afro:

[Hellbinder]

The thing is even if you are calling reducing texture detail a little *Cheating*.. then why was the Gf2 not cheating its ass off when it went up against the origional Radeon? why was their low res S3TC hack not cheating? why is their Reduced Quality AA and AF not considered Cheating??? (especially their recent AF)

If the measure of cheating based on Texture detail, or other types of things.. why have the rules changed???

Nvidias entire Nv3x line with the recent drivers should be considered Cheating right?? lower PRecision Quality forced by the Driver regardless of the applications desire and thats just one area.

You simply CAN NOT call what Ati did a *cheat* if you give Nvidia a pass on their Reduced Quality settings. which has been a Constant pattern for them every time they want to win a benchmark for 3 straight years.

[Pureevil]

Originally posted by Sazar
you sir.. are pure evil :D

I am sure you are auditioning for the excorcist returns - memoirs of a possessed forum dweller...

:afro:
NO, I am Pureevil!:firedevil

[Hellbinder]

It is simply that if doling *X* is considered cheating then the practice of *X* should be considered cheating by everyone.

If it is decided that *X* is not cheating but something else.. then that same rule needs to get passed around to everyone.

Was Reducing the Detail levels in Quake by ATi *Cheating* or not. If the Answer is Yes.. then based on that precident then where does this wormhole really lead?

[Sazar]

Originally posted by Hellbinder
It is simply that if doling *X* is considered cheating then the practice of *X* should be considered cheating by everyone.

If it is decided that *X* is not cheating but something else.. then that same rule needs to get passed around to everyone.

Was Reducing the Detail levels in Quake by ATi *Cheating* or not. If the Answer is Yes.. then based on that precident then where does this wormhole really lead?

if you follow the white rabbit you end up finding out what the matrix really is :D

[volt]

I'm sorry but this is pointless.

[Sazar]

Originally posted by volt
I'm sorry but this is pointless.

for what its worth (and I know it ain't worth much)

I agree :)

[Hellbinder]

I'm sorry but this is pointless

Sorry Volt it is not pointless. This Ati cheats thing is used all the time on this forum and most orthers. How is this pointless?? Perhaps the indications made are a bit to uncomfortable??

[volt]

Just one thing, why did you post this HERE.

[digitalwanderer]

Originally posted by Hellbinder
Sorry Volt it is not pointless. This Ati cheats thing is used all the time on this forum and most orthers. How is this pointless?? Perhaps the indications made are a bit to uncomfortable??

Nah, I don't think that's what Volt meant. I think he's meaning that we all agree that there is questionable activity going on, but until nVidia comes out with their official bullsh!t we really shouldn't be saying that they are a lying sack of sh!t who is defrauding consumers.

We probably really shouldn't be, but it is SO hard not to in the face of all the overwhelming evidence and lack-o-response from nVidia...so I reckon I can sympathize with your aggravation. ;)

BTW-Have you ever noticed that it takes longer for someone to make up a convincing lie than it does for them to answer truthfully? Weird... :eek2:

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by Hellbinder
The thing is even if you are calling reducing texture detail a little *Cheating*.. then why was the Gf2 not cheating its ass off when it went up against the origional Radeon? why was their low res S3TC hack not cheating? why is their Reduced Quality AA and AF not considered Cheating??? (especially their recent AF)

The S3TC thing has been covered before, but to summarize:
1) Radeon cards conveniently didn't compress lightmaps, which were the cause of the artifcats on the GeForce.
2) S3 cards had the same IQ issues as GeForce cards, and guess where nvidia got their compression algorithm from?

What reduced quality FSAA are you referring to? The blur that occurs only in screenshots?

What reduced quality AF? The High Performance AF and Performance AF look better than they did with older drivers.

Are you sure you're not just grasping at straws?

nvidia IS cheating in 3dmark03. You should just ignore people who won't admit it, you're never going to change their minds anyway.

[The Baron]

Hellbinder...

A. Quack was a cheat.
B. the S3 thing was a legitimate bug.
C. Yaaargh I'm a pirate.
D. for the love of God, stop sounding so pompous in all of your posts. Contrary to what you may have set up in that fragile little thing you call your reality, you're not always right. You're not Mistar Wizard who knows all and when people disagree with you, oh, they MUST be stupid.

So yargh. I'm tired, grumpy, annoyed with looking at stupid pointless posts from way too many people, and I lost my parrot. /me points at his pegleg

[MrNasty]

The nvidia cheat in 3dmark was a little bit more of a REAL CHEAT than quak imo.

Anyway the Quak thing lowered the quality of the mip maps in a huge huge way which was not told to the user or reflected in the ati control panels settings.

It was missleading as ati did not inform the user that they were not actually getting a change to the mipmap settings specifcally for quake3 so benchmarks attempting to set nvidia cards and the radeon pro to the same quality levels would also of been missled as this "optimisation" was not showen or toggleable in the control panel.

It was done to make quake run faster, thats fine because that benifits the user but ati should of told benchmarkers about it and the lack of any apples to apples becnhmarks in quake3.

I mean how far can you look into quak, just make your own opinion on it and don't bother about trying to convice anyone.

I don't personally think you can trust a single game or a benchmark to judge a cards performance. Ultimately you have to spread the load over numerous games and average the score because all sorts of things like the render paths in doom3 can play fiddle with your results.

[volt]

How is that a cheat if you can't see it, or can you?

[digitalwanderer]

Originally posted by The Baron
C. Yaaargh I'm a pirate......yargh. I'm tired, grumpy, annoyed with looking at stupid pointless posts from way too many people, and I lost my parrot. /me points at his pegleg

"Aargh, aargh, aargh! Cut off me leg and call me 'Peggy'! Aargh, aargh, aargh....."


(Ok, it's too late and I'm loopy...I'll stop thread crapping now.)

[Sazar]

Originally posted by volt
How is that a cheat if you can't see it, or can you?

which ? quake or 3dmark03 ?

[volt]

3DMark...

[MrNasty]

They simply should of told the benchmarks or whatever instead of covering it up.

Im sure this is a feature that many games might of wanted to use when playing quake. But ati secrecy over it has made it look suspicious.

:\