Why did NVIDIA skip the revision of Direct X 10.01 on their 9800 GTX/GX2/GTX 260/280?

[Digital_Trans]

Why did NVIDIA skip the revision of Direct X 10.01 on their 9800 GTX/9800 GX2/GTX 260/280? ATI has since added the support to their products since late last year. Why does NVIDIA continue to lack support for Direct X 10.01 even with the latest and greatest NVIDIA GTX 280?

[Muppet]

I would say that they are just wanting to jump straight to DX11.

[Viral]

It's a bit annoying, and moreso seeing the way they don't want TWIMTBP devs using DX10.1. We could be seeing faster performing DX10 games already, but we aren't. Thanks nVidia :thumbdwn:

[Rollo]

It's a bit annoying, and moreso seeing the way they don't want TWIMTBP devs using DX10.1. We could be seeing faster performing DX10 games already, but we aren't. Thanks nVidia :thumbdwn:

Or perhaps developers simply aren't very interested in DX10.1, as evidenced by the lack of a single DX10.1 game. (not like NVIDIA controls what version of DX devs use)

MS themselves said DX10.1 was not very important:
http://www.edge-online.com/news/microsoft-writes-off-dx101-fears
"It's a minor update, so we don't expect any developers to say, 'oh, this game is DX10.1 only.'

I think NVIDIA and most devs will jump straight to DX11, and DX10.1 will end up being utilized by a couple games. The only games I've ever seen noting upcoming 10.1 support are a 4 or 5 RTS games, and some of them might end up being DX11.

[nekrosoft13]

10.1 is very minor update probably will end up like shader 2.0, not many devs cared. most went straight to 3.0

[Fathertime36]

10.1 is very minor update probably will end up like shader 2.0, not many devs cared. most went straight to 3.0

Lol kind like how Im staying with Windows XP and skipping Vista til "Delicious" or what ever the hell they are going to call it.....hopefully not "HELL"....haha

"Dude you must get Vista, all the best games are going to be DX10 only, like Halo 2 ....need a say more LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[hemmy]

Your gameplay would likely be no different with 10.1 support

This isn't like ATI not having SM3.0 support on R420

NVIDIA probably felt 10.1 wasn't important enough to warrant implementation.

[JH24]

^ yeah, most likely that is the main reason. The issue isn't as big as what ATI did regarding
SM 3.0 support back then. I have a feeling this won't really be too important.


I did hear some controversy about Assassin's Creed and DX 10.1 support regarding ATI/AMD in the past, giving better performance for their cards but then DX 10.1 was withdrawn again in a patch by the developers, but I heard so many conflicting stories about it that I never really knew what to believe.

[Xion X2]

Or perhaps developers simply aren't very interested in DX10.1, as evidenced by the lack of a single DX10.1 game.

This isn't true. There are several games in the works:

Developers including Electronic Arts Phenomic Studio and its forthcoming fantasy online real-time strategy game Battleforge™, SEGA and its futuristic military real-time strategy game Stormrise, and NHN Games and its 3D role-playing game Cloud 9, all exploit DirectX 10.1 for advanced gaming performance and visual realism.

Only AMD graphics offer top-to-bottom DirectX 10.1 support: the ATI Radeon™ HD 3000 series and the new ATI Radeon™ HD 4800 series.

“We welcome AMD’s broad support for DirectX 10.1 compliant hardware and we’re pleased to see our newest technology brought to market so soon. One of the great advantages of PC gaming is the rapid pace at which the experiences evolve and improve. The ATI Radeon HD 3000 series and now the ATI Radeon HD 4800 series hardware delivers on the promise of DirectX 10 gaming with significantly improved visuals and enhanced performance,” said Kevin Unangst, Global Director, Microsoft Games for Windows.

“With Battleforge, EA is pushing the boundaries of the real-time strategy genre introducing social and community technologies to deliver a whole new online experience. It only makes sense that we leverage the latest technology such as DirectX 10.1 supported by the new ATI Radeon HD 4800 series of graphics cards from AMD to deliver an amazing experience for gamers,” said Dirk Ringe, vice president, EA Phenomic. “We’re working hard to deliver a new fantasy RTS experience never seen before. Using DirectX 10.1 and AMD’s graphics technology will enable Battleforge to look its absolute best.”

“SEGA welcomes the chance to deliver one of next year’s most technologically advanced titles, Stormrise. AMD’s enthusiastic commitment to new standards such as DirectX 10.1 in the ATI Radeon HD 4800 series is helping us develop a game which looks better and runs faster than was possible on previous platforms,” said Chris Southall, CTO Europe, SEGA. “SEGA is delighted to team up with AMD on one of our forthcoming games. AMD’s firm commitment to cutting-edge technology makes them a natural partner for us on Stormrise.”

http://forevergeek.com/games/amd_works_with_developers_to_create_dx101_magic.ph p

MS themselves said DX10.1 was not very important:
http://www.edge-online.com/news/microsoft-writes-off-dx101-fears

And they also said this:

The ATI Radeon HD 3000 series and now the ATI Radeon HD 4800 series hardware delivers on the promise of DirectX 10 gaming with significantly improved visuals and enhanced performance,” said Kevin Unangst, Global Director, Microsoft Games for Windows.

http://forevergeek.com/games/amd_works_with_developers_to_create_dx101_magic.ph p

It may not turn out to be a groundbreaking improvement, but developers state that it's significant, and so does Microsoft.

It's not a terrible thing that Nvidia didn't support it yet (shortens the shelf-life of the card, but Nvidia always seems more focused on current tech.) But I hope that if the rumors of the GT350 are true, and they STILL don't support it with their next card, that heads will roll somewhere. That's inexcusable as it's a significant performance enhancement that would benefit all end-users with compatible hardware.

[nekrosoft13]

you also need to note, that by the time 10.1 game shows up dx11 will either be out already, or close to being released.

dx11 hardware will be out before dx11 gets released. dx11 hardware will be backwards compatible including 10.1

[Xion X2]

you also need to note, that by the time 10.1 game shows up dx11 will either be out already, or close to being released.


You're right about that, but you need to consider development time. DX11 will lag behind DX10.1 development as there are already games in development that use DX10.1 technology.

ATI is already set to go with the Tesselator for DX10.1 implementation in a future driver set. Frobles, a demo utilizing the technology, will be released alongside it within the next driver or two according to Eric Demers in a recent interview over on Rage.

[nekrosoft13]

You're right about that, but you need to consider development time. DX11 will lag behind DX10.1 development as there are already games in development that use DX10.1 technology.



true but look at my other point, dx11 hardware will probably be out before dx11 gets released.

dx11 hardware will be also compatible with dx10.1

[Xion X2]

true but look at my other point, dx11 hardware will probably be out before dx11 gets released.

It doesn't really matter. Developers cannot code for DX11 until the API is released to the public.

So if DX10.1 is already available (which it has been as developers are already working with it) then it has a good head start on DX11, obviously.

dx11 hardware will be also compatible with dx10.1

My worry is that the recent GT350 rumor could be true and they'll skip DX10.1 and DX11 altogether. Despite whether or not ATI supports it, Nvidia is a big influence on developers.

Hoping that doesn't happen. I honestly don't think it will. It would be pretty &$&@^ of Nvidia to withhold performance increases from a large crowd just because they didn't want to support it with hardware. They've already delayed its implementation with their current-gen lineup. I mean, hell.. ATI has supported it since last gen. It's time for Nvidia to do the same so that we can all benefit from the performance enhancements.

[Digital_Trans]

Will Direct X 11 be an exclusive feature of Windows Vista or will it be exclusive only to code name Windows 7?

[rap1d^]

Will Direct X 11 be an exclusive feature of Windows Vista or will it be exclusive only to code name Windows 7?

DX11 will be on both Vista and Windows 7

The new API is expected to ship with Windows 7 (which is expected in late 2009/early 2010), but the good news is that DirectX 11 will also run on Windows Vista. On that note, we're hoping that DirectX 11 won't be given the same treatment as DX10 because backwards compatibility is there and, as you'll see over the coming pages, there are some features that could even prove beneficial to current DirectX 9.0 and 10/10.1 hardware.

Taken from this article (http://www.bit-tech.net/bits/2008/09/17/directx-11-a-look-at-what-s-coming/1)

[Digital_Trans]

So new hardware will be required for Direct X 11 just like with Direct X 10 with the 8800 GTX/Ultras.

[walterman]

I do not understand why we still need a new GPU for each new DX revision, if the GPU makers stated that the actual GPUs are totally programmable. :confused:

A change in the API should not be a problem if the GPU is totally programmable. After all, they want to sell us the GPU as a general purpose processor.

[Xion X2]

So new hardware will be required for Direct X 11 just like with Direct X 10 with the 8800 GTX/Ultras.

Yep. But considering that DX11 is nowhere near public release, and taking into account development time, it will probably be anywhere from 12-18 months before you'll see anything surface for it. Maybe longer.

Meanwhile, we all could've been enjoying a glimpse of what it will offer with DX10.1 in a plethora of games had Nvidia implemented it into their hardware already since their influence on developers is substantial. There are a few teams working with ATI on its implementation at the moment, but that group could've been much larger with support from both vendors.

[fivefeet8]

From a development standpoint, it's a bit dissappointing that Nvidia also doesn't support Dx10.1. There are some real tangible benefits of it as evident by Assassins Creed even if it's only a small upgrade.

From a gamers standpoint, it's not that much of an issue. There hasn't really been a killer app which really differentiates between SM3/SM4 yet.

As to why Nvidia hasn't with their current offerings. A lot of people seem to think it meant they had to re-design some of the G8x architecture to make them fully compliant with 10.1 and that die space prevented them from doing such a re-design or addition of extra transistors.

[fivefeet8]

I do not understand why we still need a new GPU for each new DX revision, if the GPU makers stated that the actual GPUs are totally programmable. :confused:

A change in the API should not be a problem if the GPU is totally programmable. After all, they want to sell us the GPU as a general purpose processor.

Current GPU's are not full programmable. Their shading cores are fully programmable(almost), but the entire GPU still uses some fixed function hardware. Dx11 also doesn't do away with fixed function hardware because the tessellation unit is not part of the programmable shader core.

[jimmyjames123]

This isn't true. There are several games in the works:

Wow, aren't you the chief AMD/ATI crusader.

There is a difference between DX10.1 games being available now (which is pretty much next to nothing at the moment) vs what might be in the works in the future. At the moment, and probably in the future too, we aren't going to see DX10.1 get any traction. Period. End of story.

And they also said this:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Global Director, Games for Windows - Microsoft
The ATI Radeon HD 3000 series and now the ATI Radeon HD 4800 series hardware delivers on the promise of DirectX 10 gaming with significantly improved visuals and enhanced performance,” said Kevin Unangst, Global Director, Microsoft Games for Windows.

Where does the guy from MSFT say anything about DX10.1? He only talks generically about DX10 and the ATI cards. He could make the exact same statement about the 8800 DX10 cards compared to the prior generations.

Depending on the design of one's hardware, it may not be all that easy to just simply add functionality for .1 . It doesn't make sense for NVIDIA to even attempt to release a DX 10.1 card if it requires them to make serious changes to their existing hardware. It's great that ATI/AMD was able to have DX10.1 compliance, but I just don't see NVIDIA going that route.

[walterman]

Current GPU's are not full programmable. Their shading cores are fully programmable(almost), but the entire GPU still uses some fixed function hardware. Dx11 also doesn't do away with fixed function hardware because the tessellation unit is not part of the programmable shader core.

So, they aren't fully programmable after all.

I like what Tim Sweeney stated here:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20080917192853_Game_Developer_Foresees_Death_for_D irectX_Graphics_Processing_Units.html

Tim Sweeney, chief executive officer of major game developer Epic Games, said in an interview that he expected 3D graphics cards used to accelerate rendering of video games as well as major applications programming interfaces (API) to vanish into thin air in the coming years. According to Sweeney, software rendering will return, but this may reshape the whole computer graphics industry.

“In the next generation we’ll write 100% of our rendering code in a real programming language – not DirectX, not OpenGL, but a language like C++ or CUDA. A real programming language unconstrained by weird API restrictions. Whether that runs on Nvidia hardware, Intel hardware or ATI hardware is really an independent question. You could potentially run it on any hardware that's capable of running general-purpose code efficiently," said Mr. Sweeney in an interview with Ars Technica web-site.

So, DirectX/OpenGL will end as kernels for the future graphics processors. I want to see this :)

[Xion X2]

Wow, aren't you the chief AMD/ATI crusader.

Wow, aren't you the troll that likes to spout clueless insults at people.

Look here to find this "ATI Crusader" spending over 1500$ on Nvidia hardware:

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=85643&highlight=xion+poseidon

And look here to find this "ATI Crusader" trading in his 2900XT for an 8800 Ultra just last year:

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1387370&postcount=1288

And look here to find this "ATI Crusader" telling guys within the last few weeks to go with an Nvidia card over ATI's current offering depending upon their needs:

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1733066&postcount=7


Alright, now that we got that bull$#&@ out of the way... :rolleyes:

There is a difference between DX10.1 games being available now (which is pretty much next to nothing at the moment) vs what might be in the works in the future.

What you think makes a "difference" doesn't matter one iota, because that's not what Rollo said. He said developer support was lacking because there wasn't a "single DX10.1 game" on the radar, which is incorrect. There are some in development, and the developers on each project give very positive feedback about the benefits of 10.1.

At the moment, and probably in the future too, we aren't going to see DX10.1 get any traction. Period. End of story.

Yes, because Nvidia didn't support it. Which was my point. Thanks again for clarifying it.

Where does the guy from MSFT say anything about DX10.1?

Are you blind? Read the first sentence of his quote again:

We welcome AMD’s broad support for DirectX 10.1 compliant hardware and we’re pleased to see our newest technology brought to market so soon.

How could that be any MORE clear?

Thumbs down to your overdefensive rant. You'd better bring something better than that next time. http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/images/icons/icon13.gifhttp://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/images/icons/icon13.gifhttp://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/images/icons/icon13.gif

[jcrox]

I don't see what the big deal is. Games are still designed with DX9 as the primary API with DX10 being mainly an add-on or alternative for what amounts to a fairly small percentage of the overall gaming market. DX10 likely needs to become more mainstream before we see a real push for anything else that would amount to DX10.1 being something substantial beyond a marketing gimmick or niche that can be applied to a few games.

[Xion X2]

I think the crux of the issue is that DX10 really hasn't brought the "performance improvements" that Microsoft claimed it would.. at least not on a grand level. But with DX10.1, it's showing tangible benefits that have been verified by both developers and the gaming community, so there's motivation to use it as long as the hardware support is there.