View Full Version : NV30 pictures
Originally posted by Lezmaka
So basically, it looks like your head doesn't know where your ass is, or maybe it's cuz your head is in your ass.
Thanks for that objective assessment, Lezmaka! I won't return the favor by speculating as to what's been up your ass because quite frankly, it just doesn't interest me. :rolleyes:
btw, I'm still waiting for those NV30 pics ... ??
:D
mavis
StealthHawk
07-28-02, 03:24 AM
Originally posted by SsP45
With the Radeon 9700, ATI has proven themselves.
If that is true, then it appears Nvidia had to redesign (at least partially) the NV30 to make it as fast or faster than the R300. If that's true, then ATI really did catch Nvidia off guard and released a product faster than Nvidia expected.
there's no way they can redesign the chip and still have it out this year. yes, there have been rumors that NV30 will be delayed till next year, but it seems more and more likely that it won't. for nvidia to physically redesign the chip now would be impossible, these cards are being designed and worked on for 1-2 years before they are produced. ATI hasn't "proven" themselves by a long shot. the card isn't shipping yet, and all we have are previews, no reviews, and perhaps more importantly, no user reviews.
StealthHawk
07-28-02, 03:27 AM
Originally posted by Matthyahuw
Why do you think nVidia would lie about what the NV30 can do?
They eventually have to back it up, and I'm sure if they couldn't pull it off, they'd severely pay in some bad PR from the other camp (and especially from Kyle @ HardOCP).
well, nvidia has made such claims in the past, both about the TNT and the TNT2, about the performance of these cards destroying everything else on the market ;)
I have no doubt nVidia can deliver on their claims.
And as far as I'm concered ATi's is the one that should be proving, not nVida, especially with their track record, and the way they told the previewers to portray the data in percentages only...very misleading...
Don't get me wrong, I think the R300 will be a kick-ass product, I just think the NV30 will be better...
bingo
If Nvidia do nothing about their aniso implementation than the R300 would be faster at high res AA and aniso. Take a look at current performance hits with aniso enabled and Geforce 3+4 users (not so much G3).
These pictures are definetly an indication of what NV30 will be capable of, I have no doubt about it! :D
Now I see ATI fans getting mad, but remember, even if R300 will be capable of rendering this, it would PROBABLY take more passes for it to do so.
Note: I have no idea how many instructions were used on these pics, so I may as well be wrong.
StealthHawk
07-28-02, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by K.I.L.E.R
If Nvidia do nothing about their aniso implementation than the R300 would be faster at high res AA and aniso. Take a look at current performance hits with aniso enabled and Geforce 3+4 users (not so much G3).
there's nothing really wrong with the AF performance in OGL. it is decent as it is. however, if it is not improved with NV30, then you have a legitimate complaint. also, what exactly is the performance hit of AF on the R9700?
i'm still interested in seeing some real reviews of the R9700, as i really think it will be rather cpu limited at say 1024X768. and i have no intention of playing at ultra high resolution of 1600X1200. needless to say, it will be interesting to see actual performance of NV30 and R9700
Richthofen
07-28-02, 07:17 AM
why statring a flame war.
There is nothing to worry about. R300 will be in store around September. NV30 little later but i bet this year.
Most people who are looking for an high end card at this time will wait until both are out.
Probably the NV30 will be better. I don't know how it will perform with AF and AA and how the raw performance will be but one thing i know for sure. It will be more programmable.
In that case Nvidia has done a good job because Developers will continue to use their hardware for new games.
Concerning their track record over years now i have now doubt that they will be very competitive.
Since the day when ATI announced their DX9 part Nvidia will keep on leaking infos on their part. That is business guys just face it. Most people will wait and i think that is the best we can do no matter what you wanna buy. If you want to buy a NV30 you will wait anyway. If you wanna buy a R300 you better wait too. If the nV30 is better then i will promise you that the R300 will get a lot cheaper.
Until know both are vapoware. I cant buy a NV30 and a R300 too.
ATI did the announcment so early because they want to cripple GF4TI sales and because they wanted to be the first one with a full DX9 part. Maybe Siggraph was a reason too.
Nvidia will do the same with their NV30 leaks.
Concerning the delay we have no other info than Nvidia saying NV30 will be their fall part. Until they keep stating this the NV30 is on schedule for this year and nothing else.
What flame war?
SH I seen some benches somewhere that a Ti 4600 was getting a 3dmark of around 4600 while R300 10k both cards with max settings. This was recently (within the month).
Originally posted by K.I.L.E.R
What flame war?
SH I seen some benches somewhere that a Ti 4600 was getting a 3dmark of around 4600 while R300 10k both cards with max settings. This was recently (within the month).
If I remember correctly, it was with AF & AA enabled on both cards.
Yeh. Doesn't that count as max IQ? ;) (rhetorical question)
I think they supplied screenshots as well did they?
That I don't remember...
But i don't think they did...
Originally posted by SsP45
I don't see why everyone is making a fuss about them. The fact is that they have nothing to do with the NV30. They were rendered in software using a 3D modeling program similar to 3D Studio MAX. Here's the link to the website where they pictures were taken from.
http://www.exluna.com/products/gallery.html
And yes I realize exluna is owned by Nvidia, but those pictures were on their website before they were purchased.
As you can see, each of the pictures was using different software. The motorcycle was built using Maya, Mayaman, and Entropy. The picture of the table and the picture of the pens were made using BMRT.
The point is rather simple:
There is now hardware assisted shading in DCC packages (DCC=digital content creation: Maya, 3ds, SoftImage).
That is valuable only if the perf. with complex models is not too bad and if the image quality is there - otherwise it is useless, and I find hard to believe that the DCC developers would have been so fast to implement support for them in their package and let the world know it if it was useless to their users! (By the way, this implies there are good chances that perf. will be real time or close to real-time with simpler models, and the models in today's games are still very, very, very (notice the emphasis?) simple).
In addition, now they own the rights to those shader's algorithms, and if they wish it they could even release them for free to try to speed up things in the developer's community.
Plain simple. What is so complex in that to understand? I fail to see it...
jbirney
07-28-02, 12:49 PM
Well those pics are nice...but how long before you see them in a game you play? Years folks. I mean we are just starting to see the TnL unit taxed with UT2003 that the oringal GF interduced almost 3 years ago. Remember JCs comments? He was able to do all the cool things in DOOM III with the oringal GF features. His next engine will use the features of the NV30 but how long is that going to take? Fact is by the time any advanced features of the NV30 are used, we will have NV45s or higher to play with. Look at DX8 stuff that the GF3 interduced. One game so far make use of it after 1.5 years... Again I think the fact they nV is pushing the envlope is great, but lets be a bit realisitc here shall we?
Also on the perfromance of the NV30. No doubt it will be fast. But how fast is hard to say. Remember David Kurt said a 256 bus is overkill. He also stated that they want higher quality pixels not faster. I am not so sure the NV30 will be faster than the 9700 based on his comments......
We're not going - well at least I am not going - to rewrite past threads, I just want to remind that all what is needed is the willigness to do games with high quality content.
update: I was happy to read Carmak's quote about how he'll focus after Doom3 on the new architectures, maybe things will go faster than what I was expecting (at least there!). Good thing... :)
legion88
07-28-02, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by SavagePaladin
I was under the impression the definition of vaporware was something you can't determine if its ever coming out, and I'm pretty positive nvidia will survive to the end of the year, and release it.
The definition of the word "vaporware" is depended on who is using it at the time. One individual a couple of years back claimed that the GeForce256 DDR was "vaporware" because he only could find two at his local store.
Originally posted by Richthofen
why statring a flame war.
There is nothing to worry about. R300 will be in store around September. NV30 little later but i bet this year.
Most people who are looking for an high end card at this time will wait until both are out.
Probably the NV30 will be better. I don't know how it will perform with AF and AA and how the raw performance will be but one thing i know for sure. It will be more programmable.
In that case Nvidia has done a good job because Developers will continue to use their hardware for new games.
Concerning their track record over years now i have now doubt that they will be very competitive.
Since the day when ATI announced their DX9 part Nvidia will keep on leaking infos on their part. That is business guys just face it. Most people will wait and i think that is the best we can do no matter what you wanna buy. If you want to buy a NV30 you will wait anyway. If you wanna buy a R300 you better wait too. If the nV30 is better then i will promise you that the R300 will get a lot cheaper.
Until know both are vapoware. I cant buy a NV30 and a R300 too.
ATI did the announcment so early because they want to cripple GF4TI sales and because they wanted to be the first one with a full DX9 part. Maybe Siggraph was a reason too.
Nvidia will do the same with their NV30 leaks.
Concerning the delay we have no other info than Nvidia saying NV30 will be their fall part. Until they keep stating this the NV30 is on schedule for this year and nothing else.
excellent post.. hit the nail on the head.
I am at least waiting untill the Nv30 is out to compare it to the R700. I have no doubt that they will both be awesome cards.
Any and all information on either product is welcome. No need to whine about it. sheesh
SavagePaladin
07-28-02, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by legion88
The definition of the word "vaporware" is depended on who is using it at the time. One individual a couple of years back claimed that the GeForce256 DDR was "vaporware" because he only could find two at his local store.
I dunno if I remember that or I'm just still insane.
but....
people :rolleyes:
[Corporal Dan]
07-28-02, 01:45 PM
BITBOYS FOREVER! hahahaha
[Corporal Dan]
07-28-02, 02:13 PM
Those pics do NOT look like real-time.
They are most likely NOT rendered on an nv30 at real-time.
Take the fruit pic. There are many things to note.
1) look at the shadows underneath the stuff. They are either raytraced (unlikely) or shadow-mapped. Either way, they are not realtime. (notice the softness, etc)
2) Look BEHIND the objects. Notice that it is blurry.... what is that? Depth of Field. It is a VERY intensive process which is hard to do in real-time AND make it look good. I have seen SOME DOF effects on the PS2, but they are nowhere near as 'perfect'
3) Notice the subtle film grain on the image.
The bike and the markers also look a helluva lot like the default 3dsmax rendering engine.
Also, the fact that ALL the pics are exactly 400x300 is suspect.
I think these pics are BS.
SavagePaladin
07-28-02, 02:30 PM
I don't doubt it, we haven't even seen close to what the gf4 CAN do....
Not that I know, but it does have much higher color precision and according to the rumored specs TONS of pixel shaders which would make it rather easy
[Corporal Dan]
07-28-02, 02:34 PM
but at realtime???
Originally posted by [Corporal Dan]
but at realtime??? Hum.... Nobody told that was realtime (unless I am mistaken?). Of course it depends on how you define realtime. Is 10 fps realtime? Is 1 fps realtime? The only thing which we really are sure of right now is that those pictures can be computed on the nv30. And that automatically means much faster than on a mere cpu because of the differences in the chips architectures.
In addition.... I would use caution before basing judgement upon what looks like possible or not in real time, because we're entering new waters and a few old rules will be good to throw overboard... :)
And by the way, I do not expect the nv30 to be a perfect gpu, but I do expect it to be better than the PS2... :)
[Corporal Dan]
07-28-02, 03:04 PM
Realtime is considered 30fps
All those scenes have been done in 3D rendering packages by people who probably don't own an NV30. You can find where the originals at http://www.exluna.com/products/gallery.html. nVidia just brought the rights to use them, and (probably) rendered them on an NV30. I could render the same scenes on a system with a Riva TNT and they would look just as good.
The main question is, how long does it take the NV30 to render these pictures. If it could render a scene like that in 1/30 of a second then you can claim its real time. But we have heard nothing about the render times of these pictures.
Until we get more official press releases from nVIDIA, I wouldn't take these as gospel examples of what the NV30 can do in real time. On the other hand, with the new pixel shaders on the NV30, I wouldn't be suprised. nV has also been working with SGI on a good way of doing real-time "soft" shadows for some time. The most complex picture is the bike, but does it really have much more detail than a frame from the Wolfman Demo?
Originally posted by jbirney
Also on the perfromance of the NV30. No doubt it will be fast. But how fast is hard to say. Remember David Kurt said a 256 bus is overkill. He also stated that they want higher quality pixels not faster. I am not so sure the NV30 will be faster than the 9700 based on his comments......
If NV30 is not as fast as the 9700 but offers better image quality then that's the card I'm going to purchase.
This is what's probably going to seperate these two cards, both will of course be much faster than what's currently available, which one has the best features and image quality will "win" this round IMO.
G6-200
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