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DSC
05-19-03, 10:19 AM
It's just a benchmark, the 03 engine will NEVER be used in a game. Previous 3dmarks's engine was based on Max Payne's engine though, and I'm a bit miffed to see the bug in Dragothic.... :mad: :p

Sad to see everyone is drawn into a silly benchmark instead of enjoying games with their hardware..... :o

digitalwanderer
05-19-03, 10:33 AM
Because they're cheating at a benchmark that they "don't optimize their drivers for" and were jumping up and down bragging about how these new drivers gave them such a better score.

Not only are they hypocrites; but they're lying, cheating, CHEESEY hypocrites. :mad:

They did it to sell cards, and the sad thing is they really didn't have to since the NV35 looks to be a pretty nice card. Now a lot of people won't buy one just because of nVidia's business practices.

It is NOT "no big deal"! :mad:

Hanners
05-19-03, 10:37 AM
* Holds head in hands *

Here we go again..... :(

I'll pretty much go with what dig said, it'll save me typing out the whole tired old argument again. :p

Ady
05-19-03, 11:18 AM
In before the lock.


...well.. it should be locked and or deleted anyways..

SteveL
05-19-03, 11:24 AM
Hanners....dude :eek:

Where has your 'Chef' avatar gone, he always bought a smile to my face whenever I saw him....yes....I know I am sad....but....where'd e go ??

DJB
05-19-03, 11:30 AM
If they are "cheating" (optimizing) for 3DMark03 to sell cards, it is the fault of all the folks out there that make 3DMark the only reason to buy a video card. Don't blame nVidia. They are in business, to make money. Wow, what a concept. To make money they have to sell cards. If the public says, oh sure you have a nice card in 98% of all games. Wow, it looks good, performs decently, but...umm, hey my 3Dmark scores sucks! I am buying BrandX because I get 200 more 3Dmarks!
Well now, who is really to blame?
The same fools that think that if they "loose" 50 points in 3Dmark2001 they have to trash a driver set, scream at Nvidia, and go back to another driver. I mean really people.

Stop using 3DMark as the answer to all graphics questions, and then Nvidia, ATI, and all the rest wont have to optimize for it, or "cheat" as some call it.

As for the not so new bug in 3DMark2001 that affects the dragon..well that is not a cheat, it is a bug, and it doesnt even affect everyone. Get over it. Bugs crop up from time to time. Go back to some driver set that has no bugs you can see and call it a day. Stop beta testing every driver revision if it bends you out of shape.

Editorial paid for by the Sanity in Benchmarking Foundation.

DJB

digitalwanderer
05-19-03, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by DJB
If they are "cheating" (optimizing) for 3DMark03 to sell cards, it is the fault of all the folks out there that make 3DMark the only reason to buy a video card. Don't blame nVidia.

You do realize of course that your logic is insane, don't you?

"Don't blame the defendant please kind Guvnor, for twas society that forced him into a life of crime and violence...thru absolutely no fault of his own!! I beg of you, leniancy for a poor bugger who was steered from the true and righteous by the overwhelming evil of society!!!!"


Puh-leeeeeese! :rolleyes:

Hanners
05-19-03, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by SteveL
Hanners....dude :eek:

Where has your 'Chef' avatar gone, he always bought a smile to my face whenever I saw him....yes....I know I am sad....but....where'd e go ??

Sorry, I felt like a change of avatar... He's still in residence over at Rage3D and DriverHeaven though, so you can always ogle him there. :lol:

solofly
05-19-03, 11:48 AM
I canít believe mods allow garbage threads these to go on... (and not just this one):(

DJB
05-19-03, 11:53 AM
Insane or not, I stand by the insanity this time around.

In trying to sell cards, the manufacturers have to take into account "Market Forces". In the case of Enthusiast level graphics cards, it is a sad, sad, case that 3DMark is a stupidly strong market force.

Pick a game based on a game engine that will find itself used in several games in the upconing 2 years, make that the defacto benchmark standard, and you will get a much better crop of video cards and drivers. Cheating will be harder (not impossible) because the games are not static.

When Doom3 finally makes the scene, I think you will find 3DMark optimizations meaningless and Doom3 will become the benchmark standard. Card makers will sell cards based on ability to play that game (engine). Until then though, the droves of 3DMark worshipers seem to defince the enthusiast crowd. Pity that.

The worship of 3Dmark is the real insanity.

DJB

Hanners
05-19-03, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by DJB
When Doom3 finally makes the scene, I think you will find 3DMark optimizations meaningless and Doom3 will become the benchmark standard. Card makers will sell cards based on ability to play that game (engine). Until then though, the droves of 3DMark worshipers seem to defince the enthusiast crowd. Pity that.

Any timedemo could be given the same treatment that nVidia gave the tests in question in 3DMark2003. There may be a greater likelihood of being caught, but it's still possible nontheless.

solofly
05-19-03, 12:01 PM
The answer is very simple. Stop supporting 3dmark in any shape or form and start benching real games instead. I donít know about you guys but I never submitted anything to madonion/futuremark and I never will. Thatís how you deal with issues like that...

Hanners
05-19-03, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by solofly
The answer is very simple. Stop supporting 3dmark in any shape or form and start benching real games instead. I donít know about you guys but I never submitted anything to madonion/futuremark and I never will. Thatís how you deal with issues like that...

I'm all for more real-world gaming benchmarkings as much as the next man, but why should everyone be pressed into a particular course of action by nVidia (or any IHV for that matter)?

Moose
05-19-03, 12:08 PM
Take a look at everyone's sig that has a 3dmark score in it.

Hanners
05-19-03, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by Moose
Take a look at everyone's sig that has a 3dmark score in it.

I just noticed solofly's sig.... 'I never submitted a 3DMark score... I just parade it in my sig instead.' :p

:lol:

solofly
05-19-03, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by Hanners
I'm all for more real-world gaming benchmarkings as much as the next man, but why should everyone be pressed into a particular course of action by nVidia (or any IHV for that matter)?

Your an Ati user so why should you care what nVidia is upto. I personally don't care what Ati is doing or is planning on doing. Just be happy you have a nice 9800pro card and keep your mouth shut just like me. I don't read rage3d forums cause I have no use out of it. What use do Ati users have out of nVidia forums I ask? To tell them how bad the IQ and all the other negative comments? That is all I ever seen since I joined here... (sad forums)

solofly
05-19-03, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by Hanners
I just noticed solofly's sig.... 'I never submitted a 3DMark score... I just parade it in my sig instead.' :p

:lol:

No I have never! You want to see a screen shot of my desktop cause that's all I can provide...

Hanners
05-19-03, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by solofly
Your an Ati user so why should you care what nVidia is upto.

Because what nVidia has done has the potential to affect the entire video card 'community' as a whole.

Besides which, I'm an enthusiast of video cards in general, not just ATi. I like to be open-minded about these things, and not just cheer on one particular company, which is why I'm here. I just happen to think it's wrong to cheat in a benchmark, that's all. Apologies if my opinion offends you, but I'm sticking to unless I see reason not to.

Hanners
05-19-03, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by solofly
No I have never! You want to see a screen shot of my desktop cause that's all I can provide...

Your sig contains a 3DMark score, that's all I was pointing out. It just seems strange to have it considering your opinions on FutureMark's software. I'm not knocking you for it, just thought it was mildly amusing.

John Reynolds
05-19-03, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by DJB

Editorial paid for by the Sanity in Benchmarking Foundation.

DJB

So if a car manufacturer knowing cheats some speed test that's a major standard in that market and you buy the car only to latter find out its performance isn't what was advertised, we should all just say, "Hey, it's not their fault. . .they're just trying to sell cars"? WOW!

Mini-editorial paid for by the Let's Educate the Uneducated, and quite frankly ignorant Consumer Market so it doesn't willingly bend over and take it up the as$ all the time.

:angel:

jbirney
05-19-03, 12:37 PM
DSC,

3Dmarks is just one of the many tools people use to gauge video cards. Wether or not 3dmarks is based off a real engine is pointless. Look at Q3 scores, NV is always at the top. Now look at JK2 or RtCW scores and ATI has a slight lead. All of them powered by the Q3 engine so you see even a popular engine does carry over from one game to the next.

Also how many games have been based of the Max Payne engine? Only one big one that I can think of...

If they are "cheating" (optimizing) for 3DMark03 to sell cards, it is the fault of all the folks out there that make 3DMark the only reason to buy a video card.

Plllleeaasssseeee Optimizing is fine. Cheating is not. Does not matter if its a game or what.

solofly
05-19-03, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by Hanners
Your sig contains a 3DMark score, that's all I was pointing out. It just seems strange to have it considering your opinions on FutureMark's software. I'm not knocking you for it, just thought it was mildly amusing.

The whole point behind it is that my year and a half old Ti4400 can still keep up and that's all. (and that's mainly for all of you and not me)

PreservedSwine
05-19-03, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by solofly
The answer is very simple. Stop supporting 3dmark in any shape or form and start benching real games instead. I donít know about you guys but I never submitted anything to madonion/futuremark and I never will. Thatís how you deal with issues like that...

You can start by removing the 3dmark score in your sig:rolleyes:

solofly
05-19-03, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by PreservedSwine
You can start by removing the 3dmark score in your sig:rolleyes:

I'll change it just for you...

dpollard55
05-19-03, 02:30 PM
The AVERAGE consumer doesn't care about 3dmark scores at all. They only care whether a certain card will play the games they want to play. The only people this could possibly affect in a purchase decision would be the hard core crowd who pays attention to such things as benchmark scores. And it seems that most of you already know about this "bug" or "cheat" so I would assume you are smart enough to take that into consideration when making a purchase decision. So you see this little fiasco will in no way affect sales at all, and hence it is a big deal over nothing. The average consumer has most likely never even heard of 3dmark at all.