Oh Yeah They Changed the Name

[1stFlight]

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,451925,00.html

Now that it's called "Terrorist Information Awareness" , I feel much better.... don't you?

Nothing quite like having your government spy on it's citizens in the name of security. Ben Franklin is doing backflips.

[LORD-eX-Bu]

if you beleive that this type of stuff hasn't been going on for a long time, even under your precious dem administrations, you are the one that isn't intelligent:rofl

here comes all the crap about poindexter and reagan. Have fun:thumbsup:

[Sazar]

Originally posted by [eNv]-LORD-eX-Bu
if you beleive that this type of stuff hasn't been going on for a long time, even under your precious dem administrations, you are the one that isn't intelligent:rofl

here comes all the crap about poindexter and reagan. Have fun:thumbsup:

poindexter :rolleyes:

[UDawg]

Originally posted by Sazar
poindexter :rolleyes:


John Poindexter was Reagan's National Security Advisor that was fired by Reagan. If I remember right.

He was allegidly in the Iran contral deal.

BTW here is another great example of the lefts amazing ability to support brutal dictators and brutal communist regimes like the Contras. :rolleyes: This is much different than the US using Iraq to beat Iran in their war. We did not back Iraq to hold up the nation we backed to defeat Iran.

At least it is a republican president who is getting us out of Saudia. ;)

[vampireuk]

Originally posted by [eNv]-LORD-eX-Bu
if you beleive that this type of stuff hasn't been going on for a long time, even under your precious dem administrations, you are the one that isn't intelligent


That still doesnt make it any more right, people should be objecting to this sort of thing instead of saying "well duuh I guess its for the best" and then proceding to mock those who have the balls to stand up for their rights;) :p

[LORD-eX-Bu]

great time to "stand up" for his rights eh? Politically motivated, why not do it under a Dem administration? *cough* double standard *cough*:lol:

he's the one that insulted me, just giving a little back;)

[1stFlight]

I don't matter who's in charge for something like this. Any America who values the rights their forefathers fought a died for should be protesting this idea.

Anything less is unpatriotic.

Welcome to what true patriotism is. It's not sticking a flag on your car, blind support, or wearing the red, white and blue. It's actually defending the rights real soldiers died for.

They didn't die to allow us to be watched by our own government.

[LORD-eX-Bu]

no but they did die for a better future for our country and to keep us safe. Thats whats happening, live with it:rofl

[vampireuk]

Originally posted by [eNv]-LORD-eX-Bu
great time to "stand up" for his rights eh? Politically motivated, why not do it under a Dem administration? *cough* double standard *cough*:lol:

he's the one that insulted me, just giving a little back;)

I'd stand up for my rights no matter what party was in charge, but I don't like there so I can only poke people into action:D

[Riptide]

Originally posted by 1stFlight
They didn't die to allow us to be watched by our own government.

Please point out exactly where in the constitution you are guaranteed a right to privacy.

I'm not arguing that we shouldn't have a right to privacy, only that the right may not be there. It is often assumed that it is. I want proof. Clear, concise, proof.

[UDawg]

Originally posted by Riptide
Please point out exactly where in the constitution you are guaranteed a right to privacy.

I'm not arguing that we shouldn't have a right to privacy, only that the right may not be there. It is often assumed that it is. I want proof. Clear, concise, proof.

1stFlight also said we have a right to a education in a much much earlier thread. :rolleyes: That isn't in the constitution either. :eek:

[Riptide]

Yeah, and a right to universal health care and every other socialist program that can be thought up. It's just communism rebadged. Weeee....

[1stFlight]

If you're looking for the word for word "right to privacy" in the Constitution, it's not there don't bother looking. However, the Constitution doesn't mention an Air Force either, so should we abolish it?

Overall the "Right" has been established via the interpetations of the Constitution over the past 200+ years

http://www.freedom4ever.net/freedom_and_priv.htm

http://www.usconstitution.net/constnot.html#privacy

Powerfull thing that 9th Amendment, it's a wonder we don't use it more often. Basically, it boils down to, the Government does not retain the right to spy on you. The wording was carefully chosen btw. As there are a lot of things the Government may be doing illegally, and if we're not going to demand adherence to the Constitution, what kind of patriots are we?

Most of you can already guess my answer.

Too many have forgotten that our forefather never intended for our government to rule over us like serfs. That was the one thing they were fighting against the most.

Originally posted by Riptide
Please point out exactly where in the constitution you are guaranteed a right to privacy.

I'm not arguing that we shouldn't have a right to privacy, only that the right may not be there. It is often assumed that it is. I want proof. Clear, concise, proof.

[1stFlight]

The education bit is personal, I figure if I'm going to be forking out taxes every year I want something for it. Of course if you just like sending your money away to D.C. and never seeing it benifit your countrymen, that's your problem.

It's also in print - Legistrative Branch


Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;


By "general welfare" of the people what to do you think they're talking about, their dental plan? The Government's sole reason of existance is to do the peoples business, not to make slaves of the people.

Geez, get a grip, actually read the Constituion before you go of spouting at the mount about how "patriotic" you. Half of you guys are nothing more than paper patriots.


Originally posted by UDawg71
1stFlight also said we have a right to a education in a much much earlier thread. :rolleyes: That isn't in the constitution either. :eek:

[Riptide]

Yes, the 9th amendment seems to be a rather powerful gray area doesn't it?

Frankly, the second link you posted with it's references to search and seizure, etc. are more compelling than the first one.

Regarding education, there is an argument to be made that public education may be inferior to private education and as such does not promote the general welfare. Ofcourse, that is a debate all to itself.

Using the broad spectrum of promoting the "general welfare" of the people could be used to create a broad spectrum of social programs, certainly moreso than existed when the founding fathers were around. One could argue that when taken to an extreme you could even use this clause to create a massive welfare state.

[1stFlight]

Very, which is probably why it's not taught.

A Wizard of Id comic said it best with --

"Ignorance is a tyrants best friend"

It's time to stop being ignorant of the things our government does.

Thanks btw, I try to find the best sources.

Originally posted by Riptide
Yes, the 9th amendment seems to be a rather powerful gray area doesn't it?

Frankly, the second link you posted with it's references to search and seizure, etc. are more compelling than the first one.

[UDawg]

Originally posted by 1stFlight
The education bit is personal, I figure if I'm going to be forking out taxes every year I want something for it. Of course if you just like sending your money away to D.C. and never seeing it benifit your countrymen, that's your problem.

It's also in print - Legistrative Branch



By "general welfare" of the people what to do you think they're talking about, their dental plan? The Government's sole reason of existance is to do the peoples business, not to make slaves of the people.

Geez, get a grip, actually read the Constituion before you go of spouting at the mount about how "patriotic" you. Half of you guys are nothing more than paper patriots.


No need to be nasty. I never questioned "your" patriotism except where some of the people in the anti war crowd have made it quite clear they are not just voicing a opposite opinion but were anti american. Not all but a large number of them were. BTW I have been quite nice lately in my debates, please do the same.

Just show me where it says we have a right to a education. Please don't take general terms such as welfare and bend it to your liking.

I did not say that we shouldn't have public schools I only pointed out that it isn't a right.

Go and read what Jefferson said about public schools. I think it might be surprising to you.

[LORD-eX-Bu]

I question this guy's patriotism. Already admitted that he wants this administration to fail, if this administration fails, this country hurts. Never met a patriot who'd want his country to suffer. This guy ran out of the military with his tail tucked between his ass cheeks, now, why are you a patriot?

Just because we don't see the world with the same gloomy anti-everything that is the least bit conservative does not mean that we are not "patriots". How about you start using that grey peice of **** inside that thick skull of yours before you post BS like that next time 1stFlight, you're already insulted us, lets see what you will pull out of your ass next. Can't wait:rolleyes:

[Riptide]

Originally posted by UDawg71
Just show me where it says we have a right to a education. Please don't take general terms such as welfare and bend it to your liking.
I think that was what I was trying to get at. General terms like that could maybe be used to promote all kinds of socialist programs.

Regarding the first part of the post you were replying to, I do feel I get benefit from the taxes I send into DC. Do we really need to compose a list? That would be silly, there are so many examples out there already it's obvious.

[UDawg]

Originally posted by Riptide
I think that was what I was trying to get at. General terms like that could maybe be used to promote all kinds of socialist programs.

Regarding the first part of the post you were replying to, I do feel I get benefit from the taxes I send into DC. Do we really need to compose a list? That would be silly, there are so many examples out there already it's obvious.

I just don't like it when people claim rights that are not outlined in the constitution. Sure one could say it is illegal to keep someone from getting a education but that is different from saying it's a right in the constitution. Civil laws are not the same as constitutional right. I hope that is more clear fer ya. :p

Contrary to what 1stFlight said I do know the constitution very well. I just happen to believe as our fore fathers believed that it is not a living breathing document than can bend and change it's meaning. What the left thinks about it bending is very different than the amendment process, yet it seem they think they are one and the same..:p

[vampireuk]

Yeah, and a right to universal health care and every other socialist program that can be thought up. It's just communism rebadged. Weeee....

And healthcare and education are bad things right;)

*hands you the constitution* here wipe your arse with it a bit more, I guess as true patriots you don't really need it anymore.:p

Edit: I wonder what your reactions would be if the government took away your precious firearms, I bet you would be ranting and raving about that;) I just don't get it, you are supposed to be this big proud nation. But hell, you wouldnt see us Brits been bent over like this;)

[1stFlight]

Total flamebait from soneone I definately consider to be a paper patriot.

Dude, the administration has failed itself, it wasn't some oddball desire, it's a fact, get over it. It's failed every milestone

1) Economy
2) Civil liberties
3) Education (remember no child left behind?)
4) Defense (we're no safer than we were)

As for ran out of the military, I served my two enlistments, and separated, Honorably, it's more than you've done. I don't feel the need to wave a flag everytime my government wants me too. I've already done my bit for king and country.

Go wave your flag eNv, and just keep having no idea why you're doing it. I think it's rather funny.

Originally posted by [eNv]-LORD-eX-Bu
I question this guy's patriotism. Already admitted that he wants this administration to fail, if this administration fails, this country hurts. Never met a patriot who'd want his country to suffer. This guy ran out of the military with his tail tucked between his ass cheeks, now, why are you a patriot?

Just because we don't see the world with the same gloomy anti-everything that is the least bit conservative does not mean that we are not "patriots". How about you start using that grey peice of **** inside that thick skull of yours before you post BS like that next time 1stFlight, you're already insulted us, lets see what you will pull out of your ass next. Can't wait:rolleyes:

[Riptide]

Originally posted by vampireuk
And healthcare and education are bad things right;)

*hands you the constitution* here wipe your arse with it a bit more, I guess as true patriots you don't really need it anymore.:p

I think you're missing my point. It's not that they are bad or good things per se. I'm just not sold on the idea that it's the government's responsibility to be providing them.

Further, why must we assume that they would do the best job of providing said services? Looks to me like you're assuming that because I might be skeptical of the government's responsibility in those cases that I am somehow thinking that they are "bad things". This is not the case at all.

Regarding the bit about "wiping my arse" with the constitution... If I didn't have a good yankee sense of humor I might just be insulted by that. ;)

[LORD-eX-Bu]

Originally posted by 1stFlight
Total flamebait from soneone I definately consider to be a paper patriot.

I consider you to be a communist idiot, whats the difference? :rofl

I don't give a damn about your other **** views, I've heard them over and over. You seem to use your little stint in the military as your excuse for everytime someone questions your patriotism, quit hiding behind a flag you neither deserve to wave and that you spit upon every day.

You hate America and you know it:lol:

You are a pathetic bleeding heart, and you are just mad because your little dem poster child lost his 2000 election and because you got your asses kicked even worse last year. He couldn't even win in his home state:rofl

Nobody listens to you types anymore, and you types don't make policy any longer. You know you have no chance of regaining any foothold in Washington DC in the coming years and you got your panties all bunched up over it.

I bet you would love another terrorist strike on the United States, so that you could try to politicize it and attempt to turn it on the right. That is sick, you are sick, and you are pathetic.

Wow, those few years in the military, other than that, you'll never really ammount to anything. You just keep trashing what little you got and throwing it to ****.

Just keep whinning, if it makes you feel better, hell, be my guest, just don't get your hopes up son:thumbsup:

EDIT: Oh yeah, I'm not telling you this as a republican, but as the patriot that I am:rofl

wave flag wave:lol:

[ibGoodEnuf]

Lord,

Why feed into this guys $#17? He is obviously just left of Lenin. An idiot that cannot comprehend that extreme circumstances call for extreme measures. He was obviously some REMF that uses his 2 hitches to try to validate his patriotism. This man is far more guilty of treason than he is a patriot. The freedom of speech does not allow the advocacy of a violent overthrow of the government, and based on his writings, it seems he would advocate exacly such an action.

Wouldn't you love to be in a 8'x8' room with 1st to discuss what real patriotism is?