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nekrosoft13
10-22-08, 04:37 PM
http://www.edge-online.com/news/deus-ex-was-%E2%80%9Ckinda-slow%E2%80%9D-says-deus-ex-3-dev

Deus Ex 3 lead game designer Jean-Francois Dugas has been telling Edge about how the game will differentiate from its predecessors.

In an interview with Edge magazine, published tomorrow, Dugas says the original Deus Ex was “kind of slow”. He added, “There weren’t enough exciting, memorable moments. It was aimed more towards a simulation rather than a game experience.”

But he said developer Eidos Montreal would not attempt to dumb down the much-loved RPG-shooter franchise. “At this point we don’t know exactly which platforms we’re going to be out on. The PC, we’ll be there for sure. But for us, console-isation isn’t about dumbing down features. If we’re to go console we will want to keep the complexity alive. We want the menu interface and controller to feel simple without risking any of their potential"

Full interview and exclusive screens in the new issue of Edge, on sale October 23 in the UK, and within a week or so in North America and Continental Europe.

Gaco
10-22-08, 04:58 PM
Well that's an excellent starting point :)

Eliminator
10-22-08, 08:33 PM
the original Deus Ex was “kind of slow”. He added, “There weren’t enough exciting, memorable moments
uh what?

CaptNKILL
10-22-08, 08:46 PM
I saw this earlier.

Its definitely interesting. He says they want to increase the pace compared to Deus Ex, but he also says they are not going to sacrifice the complexity of the gameplay for the sake of consoles.

The comment about the game not having enough exciting or memorable moments just sounds like bad wording on his part. Obviously there was a lot of memorable stuff in Deus Ex, but it wasn't necessarily related to intense action scenes. It had more to do with the atmosphere.

So... if he 100% sticks to his word and delivers a more exciting, complex and non-dumbed down Deus Ex, that sounds fantastic.

The question is, can they actually deliver that or is he talking out his ass?

NarcissistZero
10-23-08, 12:00 AM
There is no way in hell Eidos will not release this on at LEAST the 360. No way in hell... you heard it here first.

I don't really see why it matters, either... "consolization" is the fanboy word for "mass marketing." Dumbing down and simplifying games has nothing to do with the hardware they run on and everything to do with getting more sales.

Lfctony
10-23-08, 12:45 AM
CliffyB explained this decision for Eidos:

Once again shooting down chances of a Console version of DeusEx 3, he added, "Right now, it makes sense for us to focus on the PC for a number of reasons. Not least consoles with piracy." After shooting those chances, he then curb-stomped them: "No," he said in response to a direct question about a console port. :headexplode:

nekrosoft13
10-23-08, 12:50 AM
"consolization" or "Dumbing down" as you say, has two aspects one, hardware (well controller to be exact) you can do much much more with keyboard and mouse then with gamepad. gamepad will never match complexity and accuracy of K+M.

Second is the market or the audience, people that generally play consoles, are well more simple. they don't want complexity, they want everything easy. look at idiot el numero uno. Cliffy, he wants even less buttons on gamepads.

these are two main reasons why complex games in past years have been suffering.

Lfctony
10-23-08, 12:54 AM
"consolization" or "Dumbing down" as you say, has two aspects one, hardware (well controller to be exact) you can do much much more with keyboard and mouse then with gamepad. gamepad will never match complexity and accuracy of K+M.

Second is the market or the audience, people that generally play consoles, are well more simple. they don't want complexity, they want everything easy. look at idiot el numero uno. Cliffy, he wants even less buttons on gamepads.

these are two main reasons why complex games in past years have been suffering.

Especially modified to fit Cliffy's needs...

http://www.weblogsinc.com/common/images/2634287974241518.JPG.19313260267924226

NarcissistZero
10-23-08, 01:48 AM
"consolization" or "Dumbing down" as you say, has two aspects one, hardware (well controller to be exact) you can do much much more with keyboard and mouse then with gamepad. gamepad will never match complexity and accuracy of K+M.

Controllers have like 16 buttons on them, and that doesn't include combinations... I don't know of many PC games that need more than 16 buttons plus movement, other than RTS and MMO, and even those are doable with 16, as C&C3 on 360 proves.

As for aiming, there is balancing and aiming tricks used to make dual analog feel perfectly smooth and challenging. I've been a PC gamer since I was a small child and I enjoy dual analog shooters pretty much just as much as KB&M now... you just have to get used to it. Welcome to 2008.

"Second is the market or the audience, people that generally play consoles, are well more simple. they don't want complexity, they want everything easy. look at idiot el numero uno. Cliffy, he wants even less buttons on gamepads.

these are two main reasons why complex games in past years have been suffering.

No, they're not. You can call console players simple all you like, but the fact of the matter is that you're just trying to feel superior and be a fanboy for your chosen platform. There are games as hardcore and complicated as any PC title ever was on consoles. Disgea comes to mind, as does Steel Battalion or Armored Core-whatever. Morrowind was a huge hit on console, and Deus Ex was ported well and sold well. There is nothing about playing a game on a console that makes you an idiot.

I have played both console games and PC games since I was a kid. I grew up with both King's Ques 5 AND Super Mario World. Many PC gamers have moved to consoles because they have less hassles, or because the games are there. These people have not downgraded their intelligence, they just switched platforms.

Games are simpler now because they cost millions and millions of dollars to make and companies want more and more people to buy them. A large amount of peope complained about the complexity of Morrowind, so Bethesda simplified Oblivion to SELL MORE GAMES. It had nothing to do with what platform the game appeared on, or what controller was used to play it.

There is a recent tendency for PC ports to not take advantage of the PC platform... no real graphical enhancements, no alterations to the user interface... but CORE game mechanics, like fast travel or what-have-you, is about MAINSTREAMING, not "conslizing."

CaptNKILL
10-23-08, 02:38 AM
Controllers have like 16 buttons on them, and that doesn't include combinations... I don't know of many PC games that need more than 16 buttons plus movement, other than RTS and MMO, and even those are doable with 16, as C&C3 on 360 proves.

As for aiming, there is balancing and aiming tricks used to make dual analog feel perfectly smooth and challenging. I've been a PC gamer since I was a small child and I enjoy dual analog shooters pretty much just as much as KB&M now... you just have to get used to it. Welcome to 2008.
I have to disagree here. I just counted 30 keys and mouse buttons that I use in most first person shooters, most RPGs and ALL FPS\RPG hybrid games. On top of that there are several others scattered across the keyboard that are used for other things. And on top of THAT is the ability to use the mouse cursor to easily and quickly make selections in menus... plus the mouse wheel. :p

A gamepad is more accessible than a keyboard because it provides comfortable access to all buttons, but it has nowhere near as many functions, and PC games always seem to find uses for at least half of a keyboard.

As for the mouse, its just a more natural kind of movement than a joystick for precise movements. This is why we don't use joysticks to control our mouse cursors. With a joystick, movement and speed are based on the position of the stick and your ability to control it as it snaps back into position. With a mouse, movement and speed are determined by the your hand movements directly. Mouse acceleration or aiming assists are the only things that change that.

Also, aiming assists are a bandaid fix to balance out the relatively high learning curve of mastering a joystick. The maximum "accuracy" of a joystick is also naturally lower. Analog sticks have 256 degrees of motion up and down. A decent mouse will give you 800-2000 dots per inch. Since I like being in direct, precise control over where I'm pointing or aiming in a game, a joystick just doesn't cut it.

So, overall, I'm not as good with them because I rarely play games with them, but there isn't a doubt in my mind that a mouse and keyboard are more flexible and precise than a joystick, at least when it comes to games that involve aiming, lots of controls or precise clicks.


No, they're not. You can call console players simple all you like, but the fact of the matter is that you're just trying to feel superior and be a fanboy for your chosen platform. There are games as hardcore and complicated as any PC title ever was on consoles. Disgea comes to mind, as does Steel Battalion or Armored Core-whatever. Morrowind was a huge hit on console, and Deus Ex was ported well and sold well. There is nothing about playing a game on a console that makes you an idiot.

I have played both console games and PC games since I was a kid. I grew up with both King's Ques 5 AND Super Mario World. Many PC gamers have moved to consoles because they have less hassles, or because the games are there. These people have not downgraded their intelligence, they just switched platforms.

Games are simpler now because they cost millions and millions of dollars to make and companies want more and more people to buy them. A large amount of peope complained about the complexity of Morrowind, so Bethesda simplified Oblivion to SELL MORE GAMES. It had nothing to do with what platform the game appeared on, or what controller was used to play it.

There is a recent tendency for PC ports to not take advantage of the PC platform... no real graphical enhancements, no alterations to the user interface... but CORE game mechanics, like fast travel or what-have-you, is about MAINSTREAMING, not "conslizing."

You make some good points but you pretty much explained why consoles are at least partially responsible for games generally being less complicated. First off, let me say you're probably in the minority in that you're a long time PC gamer. The gamers that I know will go to their console for something lighter that they can just sit and play for a little while, but these same people will almost always go to their PC for something more involved when they have lots of free time.

I think developers interpret this as console gamers being "simpler" so they try to simplify everything to increase sales. Since games are cross platform now, those simplifications carry over to the PC.

I've never heard anyone complain about Morrowind being too complex like you said, but all of the people I know personally that played it (10 people I think) all played it on PC and loved it.

Anyway, I think if more developers just went out on a limb and made a game with the production values of every other triple-A title but didn't cut out every feature that a monkey couldn't understand, they'd be pleasantly surprised at how many people enjoy it. Gamers aren't dumb and the success of rather complicated games (particularly MMOs) is proof of it.

crainger
10-23-08, 03:28 AM
I can play all games on all systems with no problems because I'm ultra mega God at everything I do.

NarcissistZero
10-23-08, 04:02 AM
I have to disagree here. I just counted 30 keys and mouse buttons that I use in most first person shooters, most RPGs and ALL FPS\RPG hybrid games. On top of that there are several others scattered across the keyboard that are used for other things. And on top of THAT is the ability to use the mouse cursor to easily and quickly make selections in menus... plus the mouse wheel. :p

A gamepad is more accessible than a keyboard because it provides comfortable access to all buttons, but it has nowhere near as many functions, and PC games always seem to find uses for at least half of a keyboard.

As for the mouse, its just a more natural kind of movement than a joystick for precise movements. This is why we don't use joysticks to control our mouse cursors. With a joystick, movement and speed are based on the position of the stick and your ability to control it as it snaps back into position. With a mouse, movement and speed are determined by the your hand movements directly. Mouse acceleration or aiming assists are the only things that change that.

Also, aiming assists are a bandaid fix to balance out the relatively high learning curve of mastering a joystick. The maximum "accuracy" of a joystick is also naturally lower. Analog sticks have 256 degrees of motion up and down. A decent mouse will give you 800-2000 dots per inch. Since I like being in direct, precise control over where I'm pointing or aiming in a game, a joystick just doesn't cut it.

So, overall, I'm not as good with them because I rarely play games with them, but there isn't a doubt in my mind that a mouse and keyboard are more flexible and precise than a joystick, at least when it comes to games that involve aiming, lots of controls or precise clicks.

Okay... what the hell are you using 30 buttons for in an FPS? Seriously?

As for the rest, I never said an analog stick is just as accurate as a mouse, or like a mouse, or any of that. Dedicated PC gamers seem to have this obsession with pointing out that the mouse is more accurate, fast and all that jazz compared to analog sticks. Here's the rub though: WE KNOW. No one denies that... no one questions that... only super mega console fanboys would even HINT that this is not the case.

The point I was trying to make was that when a game, as all console games are, is designed around the analog sticks, and made to be challenging with the analog sticks, it is, in essence, just as good as KB&M to me, because it is designed around its interface. It has nothing to do with which is more accurate, it has everything to do on what the game was designed for and what is comfortable for me.

In a game like Dead Space, where it is designed around using the anaog sticks to aim, and I am comfortable sitting on my couch using a control pad to play it, I am not thinking "wow, KB&M would be so much more accurate" because the experience I am having is designed with the interface I am using in mind, and therefore it is a seamless experience.

CaptNKILL
10-23-08, 04:57 AM
I guess I just disagree on what I consider a seamless experience. I prefer being in complete control in games and I just don't get that feeling with a joystick. Partially because I'm not that great with a joystick, but also because of auto aim. When I'm trying to point at something it bugs me to have the game aim for me, and it bugs me even more that I need it to. I didn't mean to hammer on the same point you've heard a million times, but you said "you just have to get used to it. Welcome to 2008." as if there's something wrong with people for not loving analog sticks.

Also, 30 buttons isn't really that much. I'm counting the ability to select individual weapons on the fly or to perform secondary tasks that'd normally require pressing 2 or 3 buttons at the same time with a gamepad.

Number keys 1-5 - 5 keys I use for selecting weapons (I don't usually bother with 6-0)
qwertyasdfgzxcv - 16 keys I normally use for moving, reloading, leaning, using items, changing fire modes, viewing maps, voice messages, special abilities, binoculars... etc.
tab, shift, ctrl, alt, space - 5 for viewing scores, sprinting, crouching, walking slow, jumping
mouse 1, 2, 3, two thumb buttons - 5 for fire, alt fire, melee, prone position, flashlight\night vision
mouse wheel - 2 "buttons" changing weapons

And often times there are at least half a dozen more for things that'd require accessing a menu with a gamepad. Not a big deal though really.

But it doesn't really matter how many buttons I use, the point is that the controls have to be intuitive. With a PC you could have nearly twice as many functions on individual keys, all within easy reach, without needing any combinations or menus. So rather than make a dozen convoluted button combinations or menus that would need to be navigated with an analog stick, chances are good that the complexity of the interface is just going to be limited... which, again will carry over to PC ports in most cases.

That said, gamepads are a necessity for racing games that benefit from multiple analog axis and they're more convenient and comfortable for games that don't need lots of controls or accurate aiming\looking.

crainger
10-23-08, 05:20 AM
Guys smaller posts. My head hurts. ::D:

You are both right and both left... I mean wrong.

One thing I really want in PC. Analogue movement controls. WASD + Walk/Run button is just too digital these days. Some games overcome like Splinter Cell using the mouse wheel to control movement speed. But it's so annoying to hold or hit a button to walk and then be fixed at that speed.

Maybe well have analogue WASD keys on a keyboard... Actually that gives me an idea! It's mine and don't yous steal it!

nekrosoft13
10-23-08, 07:37 AM
You make some good points but you pretty much explained why consoles are at least partially responsible for games generally being less complicated. First off, let me say you're probably in the minority in that you're a long time PC gamer. The gamers that I know will go to their console for something lighter that they can just sit and play for a little while, but these same people will almost always go to their PC for something more involved when they have lots of free time.

I think developers interpret this as console gamers being "simpler" so they try to simplify everything to increase sales. Since games are cross platform now, those simplifications carry over to the PC.

I've never heard anyone complain about Morrowind being too complex like you said, but all of the people I know personally that played it (10 people I think) all played it on PC and loved it.

Anyway, I think if more developers just went out on a limb and made a game with the production values of every other triple-A title but didn't cut out every feature that a monkey couldn't understand, they'd be pleasantly surprised at how many people enjoy it. Gamers aren't dumb and the success of rather complicated games (particularly MMOs) is proof of it.

good summary ;)

nutcrackr
10-23-08, 07:41 AM
My ideal world would feature PC exclusive, then console release 6 months or so later. I don't mind if they get it, just focus on PC first until completion. And I think deus ex was kind of slow, but a bit of a sloppy word to use.

LordJuanlo
10-23-08, 07:58 AM
I really don't care that PC versions are released months later than console counterparts as long as I have games to play (and that always happens), and if that extra time is used to make a good version.

But if the delay is based on comercial reasons, I don't like it

CaptNKILL
10-23-08, 08:00 AM
Guys smaller posts. My head hurts. ::D:

You are both right and both left... I mean wrong.

One thing I really want in PC. Analogue movement controls. WASD + Walk/Run button is just too digital these days. Some games overcome like Splinter Cell using the mouse wheel to control movement speed. But it's so annoying to hold or hit a button to walk and then be fixed at that speed.

Maybe well have analogue WASD keys on a keyboard... Actually that gives me an idea! It's mine and don't yous steal it!

I'd like to see that too. It might be hard to get used to at first, especially since I'm totally hooked on using slim (laptop style) keyboards, but I'd love to be able to control my movement speed like that. That's one very cool thing that gamepads do have over KB+M.

|MaguS|
10-23-08, 08:20 AM
As long as the game is better then Invisible War then I don't care what platform its on. I do like that they are aiming for a faster pace then the original though, should play like System Shock 2. ;)

nekrosoft13
10-23-08, 09:04 AM
IW was horrible, bought it, and never finished it. Still have it installed right now, would like to finish it just for the story. But everytime I play, just can't stand it and turn it right off.

|MaguS|
10-23-08, 09:06 AM
Get the mods, There are many that fix alot of small annoyances. Graphic Updates, Physics updates and Difficulty Updates.

Jonelo
10-23-08, 09:11 AM
Dugas says the original Deus Ex was “kind of slow”. He added, “There weren’t enough exciting, memorable moments. It was aimed more towards a simulation rather than a game experience.”

Nice . This is the more important of the interwiew ;) . The second thing about the consoles is a smokescreen

nekrosoft13
10-23-08, 09:13 AM
I have the graphics update mod from the same person that did Thief Deadly Shadows update.

Wasn't aware that there are any physics or Difficulty Updates

|MaguS|
10-23-08, 09:31 AM
The Difficulty and physics are more tweaks then mods. You gotta edit the ini to add weight to objects and have weapons do more dmg (because they all felt like pea shooters).

Gaco
10-23-08, 06:33 PM
Okay... what the hell are you using 30 buttons for in an FPS? Seriously?
Deus Ex (all default, encouraged for use within the game and I do use them all regularily):

F1,F2,F3-F12: Inventory, skills, Augmentation hotkeys - 12 keys

1, 2, 3 ... 0: Weapon/equipment hotkeys - 10 keys.

WASD: move - 4 keys

QE: lean - 2 keys

Ctrl, Space, Shift: Duck, Jump, Walk/Run - 3 keys

Left mouse, right mouse: Shoot, Use - 2 keys

ZC: Laser sight, Scope Zoom - 2 keys

R,|: Reload, Change ammo type - 2 keys


12+10+4+3+2*4 = 37. And that's not counting the lesser used but still used quick save, quick load, take screenshots etc :D