View Full Version : Render errors with FC2 Hotfix
andypski
10-30-08, 10:30 AM
No FUD has been posted here.
Like I said, lower IQ and higher performance. No one here can say for certain this was a bug or attempt at cheating, and it's fairly unlikely ATi is going to release a statement: "Curses! NVIDIA caught us!".
FUD means Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt
This could be another "Quack" situation
There's the Fear - "Oh no - this could be the same as when X happened"
No one here can say for certain this was a bug or attempt at cheating
There's the Uncertainty - "Who knows what evil goes on behind the scenes"
it's fairly unlikely ATi is going to release a statement: "Curses! NVIDIA caught us!"
And there's the Doubt - "They fixed it very quickly, but can we really take their word for it that this was unintentional...?"
FlashFreeze
10-30-08, 11:58 AM
Good job with rolling out a quick re-fix ATi.
Though looks like Expreview disagrees with you guys. Benchmark shows 5 fps loss with new hotfix. Important thing is that details is now on par with nV.
http://www.expreview.com/news/hard/2008-10-30/1225359333d10331.html
I hope all driver issues get reflected on the forums the way it did this time so that ATi jumps on fixing them this quick all the time. :D
Xion ygpm regarding AoC AAA.
LordJuanlo
10-30-08, 12:25 PM
Benchmark shows 5 fps loss with new hotfix
Other (http://www.alienbabeltech.com/?p=1045) guys have found the difference to be just 1-2 fps, and there are situations where the new hotfix is faster than the old. I think that difference is very well within error margins, and performance is 99% identical
http://alienbabeltech.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/8-10_first_hotfix.jpg
http://alienbabeltech.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/8-10_new_hotfix.jpg
Blacklash
10-30-08, 12:28 PM
From what I could see objects were not removed with the bugged drivers, they were clipping below the ground. They were there just partially submerged. Anywho, it's fixed.
FlashFreeze
10-30-08, 12:50 PM
Good point Backlash. Yup in that comparison shot, it looks more like stones were getting clipped in geometry rather than not being rendered at all.
Xion X2
10-30-08, 07:06 PM
If it was a bug, it's pretty sad such glaring differences in IQ that can be seen anywhere there are things on the ground got by QA.
http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/6045/desperationcopykg9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Ninja Prime
10-30-08, 09:31 PM
http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/6045/desperationcopykg9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
(rofl2)
The Inq article is the best "NV Hardy Boys investigate the bug of the disappearing rocks."
seems like even people on nVidia's payroll use ATI cards. How else did he discover this?
I guess we can't blame them for that.
Bug is a bug. I don't know why everyone is hating on the guy for pointing it out. Hell it got them to fix it, so we should probably be saying thanks? I mean fanboy sht aside we end up with results do we not? :headexplode:
LordJuanlo
10-31-08, 05:34 AM
Because he did not point the bug, he said that "apparently the speed increases are coming at the expense of accuracy". Does he know what the drivers are doing inside?. His words want to make us believe that those drivers are faster because they are cheating. He directly accused ATI of cheating instead of just saying something like "the hotfix drivers have a rendering problem".
That's why people is angry with the guy, and not only here, other forums where he has posted have got the same kind of replies.
Xion X2
10-31-08, 08:49 AM
Because he did not point the bug, he said that "apparently the speed increases are coming at the expense of accuracy".
That's why people is angry with the guy, and only here, other forums where he has posted have got the same kind of replies.
Exactly.
Honestly, I don't see why people are having trouble seeing this. He did not say it was a bug; he said it was an intentional move by ATI to boost benchmarks. There's a difference, and now he's catching his due hell for it. This guy has a history of spreading FUD and has been banned from both Rage3D and Anandtech. He's been doing this s$#^ for years, apparently. For example:
So this is where Rollo went to after being banned from Anandtech lol
He is well known for starting ATI vs Nvidia topics, he is the same person who argued on Anandtech that the Geforce 5800 Ultra was a good video card and not a hair dryer hehe
Atleast NOW he isn't hiding that he is an "nVidia Focus Group Member" unlike on Anandtech when everyone thought he was just rich and didn't know about his connection to Nvidia!!!
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1347471&postcount=148
This guy has apparently made it his main life's mission to downplay ATI as a business and concoct these crazy conspiracies at every turn while leading all of us to "The Light." Another example:
1. I pointed out that all benchmarks in DX10 prior to H's Lost Planet benches do not include AF and are artificially inflated.
2. I pointed out how ATi deliberately mislead consumers by not advising reviewers there was no AF in DX10 in the driver they were using.
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1331832&postcount=45
Again, in his own words on this thread:
I think there are game specific optomizations in play to try and boost benchmarks by making the card do less work.
If anyone on this thread is Fud, it's him.
Blacklash
10-31-08, 12:42 PM
Rollo was an nVidia fan long before he was a focus group member. I really don't expect him to tell nVidia, "Thanks for letting me test some of your hardware for free however I am not reporting this ATi driver bug as you've requested."
LordJuanlo
10-31-08, 01:06 PM
At least calling it "driver bug" would have been an honest approach, but a sentence like:
I think there are game specific optomizations in play to try and boost benchmarks by making the card do less work.
does not say many good things about a fair point of view.
We all are very happy that all this has made ATI react and fix the bug in 48 hours, but his intentions were clearly to hurt ATI's image, and that's not acceptable
Honestly people this is coming from a Nvidia Focus Group Blah...Blah..Blah.... simple looks like a way to put ATI in a bad light it just seems like it has an agenda which is put ATI in a bad light.
I have frequent these boards forever, and wouldnt normally post anything on a thread like this just becaue, but please dont tell me this didnt have a motive. Seriously.
The fact you ran out the door to go buy a 4800 series card to prove this point is comical but whatever I think a lot of us here, and over at the Rage forum with regard to this subject feel the same way. I just dont understand the reason really.
At the end of the day I have ATI and Nvidia cards on various systems in my house, and if someone from an ATI foucs group or whatever came here with similiar claims about Nvidia I would fell the same about this post.
Rollo was an nVidia fan long before he was a focus group member. I really don't expect him to tell nVidia, "Thanks for letting me test some of your hardware for free however I am not reporting this ATi driver bug as you've requested."
Heh- you've been around a while as well apparently. Yep, I used to argue TNT vs. 3DFX with Dave Baumann on 3DFX Gamers even.
NVIDIA obviously didn't ask me to buy a card to test this (or give me one) they were likely as surprised as everyone else.
If anyone knew my history they wouldn't be surprised though. Long before the Focus Group came into my life I used to buy 1-2 video cards a month, often side grading or even downgrading, just to play with new cards.
I downgraded from GF2 Pro to Radeon Lite, then went GF2 Pro to Radeon VIVO even though I knew the VIVO was slower.
I went down from GF1 to Rage MAXX to try it, even though I knew the drivers sucked. (and boy did they)
I downgraded from GF4 to first gen Radeon 8500, that I had to downclock to be stable like many others.
I bought a X800XT PE even though I knew I'd be getting 6800GT SLi.
I bought two X1800 to check out a couple issues.
And there's more.
Point being, it's not exactly unknown for me to buy a video card just to satisfy my curiosity about something. (not like they cost a whole lot- some guys collect cars)
Exactly.
Honestly, I don't see why people are having trouble seeing this. He did not say it was a bug; he said it was an intentional move by ATI to boost benchmarks. There's a difference, and now he's catching his due hell for it. This guy has a history of spreading FUD and has been banned from both Rage3D and Anandtech. He's been doing this s$#^ for years, apparently. For example:
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1347471&postcount=148
This guy has apparently made it his main life's mission to downplay ATI as a business and concoct these crazy conspiracies at every turn while leading all of us to "The Light." Another example:
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1331832&postcount=45
Again, in his own words on this thread:
If anyone on this thread is Fud, it's him.
Xion:
When a guy like you with a super high end ATi rig spends as much time as you have trying to discredit and defame me, my mind goes down suspicious paths.
You have talked about Crysis, my motives, previous vacations on other boards, and about anything but the issue at hand.
I'll be looking into this situation in much more detail this weekend, now that there's a fix of the fix out, and I've seen some interesting reports of the quality of the fix.
Blacklash
10-31-08, 02:28 PM
Yep me too.
I was playing with HD 3850 Crossfire in another computer when I owned an 8800GTX in my primary rig for the hell of doing so.
I've gone back and forth on nVidia/ATi cards quite a bit. I've almost always had one of each in my possession. Sometimes I get one out of curiosity and other times because I like the feature set. I liked the 8800GTX vs what ATi had to offer for a few years and I liked the X1900XT vs the nVidia 7 series.
I like the X2 a lot and my overclocked GTX 260 does real time rendering of larger scale combat more smoothly and with higher FPS. Well at least in Oblivion and AoC. Large scale combat = many characters on the screen swinging weapons, casting spells and running about. This is while I am doing the same.
ATi have tuned AFR very well and I still feel chop in the above situations. The titles I mentioned are fine with the X2 when my character is running about, or only fighting two to three creatures. No the chop isn't horrid in large scale combat, and some people might not give a flip about it. For me, it does counterbalance the higher FPS I get in the other situations a bit though.
Heh- you've been around a while as well apparently. Yep, I used to argue TNT vs. 3DFX with Dave Baumann on 3DFX Gamers even.
NVIDIA obviously didn't ask me to buy a card to test this (or give me one) they were likely as surprised as everyone else.
If anyone knew my history they wouldn't be surprised though. Long before the Focus Group came into my life I used to buy 1-2 video cards a month, often side grading or even downgrading, just to play with new cards.
I downgraded from GF2 Pro to Radeon Lite, then went GF2 Pro to Radeon VIVO even though I knew the VIVO was slower.
I went down from GF1 to Rage MAXX to try it, even though I knew the drivers sucked. (and boy did they)
I downgraded from GF4 to first gen Radeon 8500, that I had to downclock to be stable like many others.
I bought a X800XT PE even though I knew I'd be getting 6800GT SLi.
I bought two X1800 to check out a couple issues.
And there's more.
Point being, it's not exactly unknown for me to buy a video card just to satisfy my curiosity about something. (not like they cost a whole lot- some guys collect cars)
LordJuanlo
10-31-08, 02:48 PM
I'll be looking into this situation in much more detail this weekend, now that there's a fix of the fix out, and I've seen some interesting reports of the quality of the fix.
And I hope that if you find out something interesting you will post it here so we can talk about it, but please try to just post the facts and stop trying to convince people saying that it has been done on purpose by ATI just to artificially inflate benchmarks.
When a guy like you with a super high end ATi rig spends as much time as you have trying to discredit and defame me, my mind goes down suspicious paths.
I think your words against ATI have already disacredited you, so now try to win your credit back
Xion X2
10-31-08, 06:48 PM
Xion:
When a guy like you with a super high end ATi rig spends as much time as you have trying to discredit and defame me, my mind goes down suspicious paths.
Oh this is brilliant. You spend the last 2-3 years joining 6-7 different forums to spread your FUD for Nvidia to the masses, and you question MY dedication? :lol:
And I show no partiality with who I spend my money on; this current rig of mine actually costs less than the 8800GTX SLI rig I put together a year ago. I spent over 600$/clip for my GTXs on launch day.
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1157289&postcount=51
Now, if I am to seriously address this comment of yours about my efforts to "defame" you, it's not a hard job and requires almost no time on my behalf. You're doing most of that yourself. It's nothing personal on my part, but I have a real pet-peeve for individuals who like to twist the truth around, be dishonest, and lead others astray. And you have a history of doing this which means that we will butt heads any time that I see it.
You have talked about Crysis, my motives, previous vacations on other boards, and about anything but the issue at hand.
1) An outright lie. I have acknowledged that the issue existed. I simply disagreed with you saying it was intentional to boost benchmarks.
2) The issue has been proven to be nothing but a bug, and not intentional, since a driver correcting the problem was released to the public within 12 hours showing no performance decrease like you had essentially claimed it would.
3) Reputation matters. If someone has a history of spreading FUD and intentionally twisting truths, along with being banned from multiple forums for it, then their motives should certainly be questioned.
I'll be looking into this situation in much more detail this weekend, now that there's a fix of the fix out, and I've seen some interesting reports of the quality of the fix.
Given the quality of your work thus far, I'm sure that ATI is quaking in their Nikes.
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/5351/ohnoes714248ha1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Well, Expreview says the new Hotfix loses 10% performance:
http://www.dvhardware.net/article30942.html
I shouldn't have re-regged after being banned.
:nutkick:
ASUSEN7900GTX
11-01-08, 09:37 PM
i have all settings in the CCC to max AA 24x/AF16X/adaotive AA on ando so forth
ingame all is set to the highest possible except for AA as is makes trees look horrible
if no AA is on ingame the image is perfect or as perfect a game IQ can be.
so benchmark with my tig with these settings are with new hotfix
Run 3
Loop 3
* Total Frames: 2094, Total Time: 51,01s
* Average Framerate: 41,05
* Max. Framerate: 51,40 (Frame:307, 6,66s)
* Min. Framerate: 36,46 (Frame:749, 17,37s)
Average Results
* Average Framerate: 41,12
* Max. Framerate: 50,10
* Min. Framerate: 36,94
with earlier drivers
Run 3
Settings: Demo(Ranch Small), 1360x768 (60Hz), D3D9, Fixed Time Step(No), Disable Artificial Intelligence(No), Full Screen, Anti-Aliasing(8x), VSync(No), Overall Quality(Custom), Vegetation(Very High), Shading(Ultra High), Terrain(Ultra High), Geometry(Ultra High), Post FX(High), Texture(Ultra High), Shadow(Ultra High), Ambient(High), Hdr(Yes), Bloom(Yes), Fire(Very High), Physics(Very High), RealTrees(Very High)
Loop 1
* Total Frames: 2070, Total Time: 51,01s
* Average Framerate: 40,58
* Max. Framerate: 48,70 (Frame:275, 6,46s)
* Min. Framerate: 31,35 (Frame:22, 0,73s)
SVG not loaded!
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Loop 2
* Total Frames: 2037, Total Time: 51,02s
* Average Framerate: 39,93
* Max. Framerate: 50,01 (Frame:286, 6,34s)
* Min. Framerate: 33,12 (Frame:1641, 41,74s)
SVG not loaded!
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Loop 3
* Total Frames: 2023, Total Time: 51,00s
* Average Framerate: 39,66
* Max. Framerate: 50,67 (Frame:293, 6,42s)
* Min. Framerate: 32,66 (Frame:1628, 41,76s)
SVG not loaded!
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Average Results
* Average Framerate: 40,06
* Max. Framerate: 49,75
* Min. Framerate: 33,40
there is some difference in them not big but some
Xion X2
11-01-08, 09:45 PM
Well, Expreview says the new Hotfix loses 10% performance:
http://www.dvhardware.net/article30942.html
Are you serious? Whoever heard of "Dark Vision Hardware" and "ExpReview?" Is that the best you can do? One review from an obscure site that no one's ever heard of?
What about this review that shows a difference of 1fps with both 4xAA and 8xAA applied?
http://alienbabeltech.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/8-10_first_hotfix.jpg
http://alienbabeltech.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/8-10_new_hotfix.jpg
And again, from a more reputable site:
We were fed this by NVIDIA last week. Bug on some rocks? Sure. Impact to gameplay? Nope..
http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1033226188&postcount=6
/thread
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