View Full Version : ATi's Official REsponse to Futuremarks Findings.
Hellbinder
05-23-03, 05:59 PM
For those that are interested Here is ATi's *Official* Statement that just went public a little while ago.
The 1.9% performance gain comes from optimization of the two DX9 shaders (water and sky) in Game Test 4 . We render the scene exactly as intended by Futuremark, in full-precision floating point. Our shaders are mathematically and functionally identical to Futuremark's and there are no visual artifacts; we simply shuffle instructions to take advantage of our architecture. These are exactly the sort of optimizations that work in games to improve frame rates without reducing image quality and as such, are a realistic approach to a benchmark intended to measure in-game performance. However, we recognize that these can be used by some people to call into question the legitimacy of benchmark results, and so we are removing them from our driver as soon as is physically possible. We expect them to be gone by the next release of CATALYST.
Quite a contrast from the attack on Futuremark and everyones intelligence that Nvidia put out today...
:rolleyes:
digitalwanderer
05-23-03, 06:12 PM
At least they had the nuggers to step forward and address the issue head-on without shirking, AND the same day they were called into question.
I like the response, I can live with it easily. :)
I'm "proud" of ATI's response.
comparing it to nvidia's: nvidia looks like a supid irresponsible child resorting to lying and attacking others when discovered to be cheating.
The Baron
05-23-03, 06:31 PM
Link?
And, are we supposed to believe it's not a PR stunt?
Originally posted by The Baron
Link?
And, are we supposed to believe it's not a PR stunt?
er, wtf does that mean? ATI made nvidia cheat as a PR stunt?
nvidia cheated. just grow up and accept it.
vampireuk
05-23-03, 07:10 PM
Show a little more respect than that to a staff member please, and what he meant by PR stunt is that they could have just come flat out and said it was a mistake to disguise cheating.
We know NVIDIA cheated, we don't need a flock of sheep impression every 5 minutes to remind everyone of this;)
deejaya
05-23-03, 08:00 PM
we simply shuffle instructions to take advantage of our architecture
Going by this, you could say all nVidia done was "shuffle instructions to take advantage of their architechture". But, at least they responded, and fast. I have a feeling we won't hear anything from nVidia too soon.
Both companies have been caught "optimizing" for this benchmark, but people will still conveniantly forget "their" side did, too.
Lezmaka
05-23-03, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by deejaya
Going by this, you could say all nVidia done was "shuffle instructions to take advantage of their architechture".
Um, no they couldn't. ATI changed the order of instructions to better fit the architecture. Nvidia did more than re-order instructions. They flat out replaced shaders, in more than one test.
The Baron
05-23-03, 08:14 PM
"Shuffling instructions" to fit their card and REPLACING the shader with a faster one--you know what that is? It's cheating. It's exactly what NVIDIA did.
And weren't all the ATI fanboys the ones saying that "it doesn't matter if you can see it or not--if it's there, it's cheating"? Not anymore, I guess... :rolleyes:
gordon151
05-23-03, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by The Baron
"Shuffling instructions" to fit their card and REPLACING the shader with a faster one--you know what that is? It's cheating. It's exactly what NVIDIA did.
And weren't all the ATI fanboys the ones saying that "it doesn't matter if you can see it or not--if it's there, it's cheating"? Not anymore, I guess... :rolleyes:
For one this isn't near what Nvidia did and secondly who said it wasn't a form of cheating? I certainly didn't nor anyone else in this thread. People were commenting along the lines as at least ATI has admitted to and commented upon what exactly they did and are going to remove it even though it has a relatively small effect on the score.
gordon151
05-23-03, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by vampireuk
Show a little more respect than that to a staff member please, and what he meant by PR stunt is that they could have just come flat out and said it was a mistake to disguise cheating.
We know NVIDIA cheated, we don't need a flock of sheep impression every 5 minutes to remind everyone of this;)
Why didn't you just call them retarded! I know you wanted to :).
digitalwanderer
05-23-03, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by rokzy
I'm "proud" of ATI's response.
comparing it to nvidia's: nvidia looks like a supid irresponsible child resorting to lying and attacking others when discovered to be cheating.
I am too, and I agree. I somehow feel that ATi took the high road out of a bad situation, where nVidia just ignored it entirely and figures that will make it go away. :(
Originally posted by The Baron
And, are we supposed to believe it's not a PR stunt?
No, it probably is if'n you mean by "PR stunt" maintaining community relationships and credibility amongst their peers in/interested in the industry.
Oh, and by showing that they have an ounce of self-respect/dignity in 'em at the very least...unlike some callow graphic card company who I shall not name for fear of calling down the moderators wrath. ;)
StealthHawk
05-23-03, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by vampireuk
We know NVIDIA cheated, we don't need a flock of sheep impression every 5 minutes to remind everyone of this;)
Reading through that damn thread, it's apparent that some people still won't admit nvidia cheated, or what they did was wrong.
And then, you have those people who try to make it about ATI instead of about nvidia :rolleyes:
I'm glad I didn't see the thread before you pruned it.
Oh, and you might want to take a look at gordon151's sig.
StealthHawk
05-23-03, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by The Baron
Link?
And, are we supposed to believe it's not a PR stunt?
Dave @ B3D posted it (http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6032&start=20). So I would say it's very reliable.
At least ATI has admitted they made a mistake and will remove the optimizations. This is the attitude I like to see.
The Baron
05-23-03, 09:33 PM
No, it probably is if'n you mean by "PR stunt" maintaining community relationships and credibility amongst their peers in/interested in the industry.
Oh, so saying, "Oh, we were 'optimizing' it, but since we got caught, we'll turn it off"--that's not a direct implication of cheating? They're not running it as it's supposed to be run. They should change their architecture to suit 3DMark if they want 3DMark to be faster--not the other way around.
To quote you from another thread:There seems to be just about as many people though who'd jump up and say something like, "But it is a BENCHMARK, and it is meant to be run in a certain way so as to give an accurate comparison of performance. nVidia's driver cheats compromise that by bypassing the benchmark's parameters, which is NOT optimizing but is fraudulently inflating their scores to sell more cards."
I'm one of them people
(yes, I did just waste a lot of time to find that just because I'm annoyed)
Seriously, man, ATI giving you gifts has blinded you. They are BOTH CHEATING. ATI dodged the question. They replaced shaders--it's a cheat. Sorry Charlie, but it is. If you're going to play, you either play with what you're given and don't change anything, or you shouldn't play at all.
digitalwanderer
05-23-03, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by StealthHawk
Dave @ B3D posted it (http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6032&start=20). So I would say it's very reliable.
At least ATI has admitted they made a mistake and will remove the optimizations. This is the attitude I like to see.
WORD!
I still can't get over comparing the way the two companies dealt with/are dealing with this one, I really can't.
The height of arrogance/hubris vs reasonable/intelligent, it's just like a night/day difference to me.
digitalwanderer
05-23-03, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by DowndiggyDown
My God. You annoy me.
Respect this right here.
Is that supposed to be a paraphrase of nVidia's response? It sort of sounds like it... :eek2:
BTW- I LOVE your name! :lol:
gordon151
05-23-03, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by StealthHawk
Oh, and you might want to take a look at gordon151's sig.
What's wrong with my sig, I'm quoting vampireuk. I didn't make it up.
Heh...I dig this place, but all the post chopping makes it hard to follow/enjoy reading the threads......no offence.
digitalwanderer
05-24-03, 12:13 AM
Dave Baumman has prepared some zoomed screenies (http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6042) of the PS2.0 shaders in question on both the 5900 & 9800 both pre & post 3dm2k3 patching.
The proof is in the picture, and it looks like ATi might really have been optimizing on their 'cheat'. ;)
nVidia comes out as usually lately, looking awful and full-o-bull. :lol:
hithere
05-24-03, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by The Baron
"Shuffling instructions" to fit their card and REPLACING the shader with a faster one--you know what that is? It's cheating. It's exactly what NVIDIA did.
No, i don't think it is exactly what Nvidia did. Nvidia did this to a much higher degree, in more than one test, and added artificial clipping planes to the mess. ATI cheated; Nvidia cheated, cheated again, cheated a third time, and a fourth, and a fifth, and are still lying about it.
nin_fragile14
05-24-03, 12:50 AM
ATI did the right thing. They did not lie about it--they are not trying to hide what they did. (Which are apparently optimizations; not exactly cheating). If nvidia wanted to leave with a shred of dignity intact, they should have at least admitted that they cheated. Although people would still be pissed, they'd deserve a bit of respect for coming out and setting it straight.
StealthHawk
05-24-03, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by gordon151
What's wrong with my sig, I'm quoting vampireuk. I didn't make it up.
It depends on the nature of why you are quoting him. It can be seen as mocking, but I'll let him decide that. Maybe you aren't attempting to mock him, and it is all done in good fun. If Vamp's annoyed with it, I think he has every right to ask you to change it. If he's cool with it, then that's fine too.
OICAspork
05-24-03, 02:00 AM
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
Is that supposed to be a paraphrase of nVidia's response? It sort of sounds like it... :eek2:
LOL... it is a good summary isn't it!:D
Originally posted by vampireuk
Show a little more respect than that to a staff member please, and what he meant by PR stunt is that they could have just come flat out and said it was a mistake to disguise cheating.
We know NVIDIA cheated, we don't need a flock of sheep impression every 5 minutes to remind everyone of this;)
Whaa..?? who cheated?!!:confused:
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.