So now we know

[Onde Pik]

I am pretty sure Nvidia had some bean counters on this waybefore the release of the nv30. And aparently they found that cheating would be worth it. They didn't just decide to cheat on a whim... I am pretty sure about that.

So the question is.... did they think it was worth the risk of getting caught? Or did they expect to get caught and think that cheating would still be worth it even if they did?


I mean... seriously, I don't believe Nvidia would be stupid enough to think that they would get away with these kinds of optimizations without being caught... come on. Everyone with a NV3x that was a beta member if FM would probably discover this.

[jAkUp]

i think they they felt that if they were caught, they could just throw it out the window and say "well we arent a futuremark beta partner, so its all bugs"

i mean, they really had no option but to cheat. their nv30 wasnt up to snuff in 3dmark03... they for sure arent gonna claim a card is the greatest that ever lived, delay it for 5 months, then bring it out, and it gets defeated by the #1 benchmark that people use to judge systems... it just looks really, really, really bad. how much you wanna bet that part of the reason it was delayed so much is because of the driver team?

remember, huang said he didnt want the nv30 to ship until it could compete with the r300.... since they had no option left, they overclocked the hell out of it, and cheated in 3dmark03.

[jjjayb]

So the question is.... did they think it was worth the risk of getting caught? Or did they expect to get caught and think that cheating would still be worth it even if they did?

Anytime you cheat, you know there is a possibility of being caught. Nvidia new the possibility was there. They also know that with their popularity they will still have many supporters no matter what they get caught cheating at. Just look around at the number of people rushing to defend them for this. The number one excuse I see is "it's just 3dmark". Unfortunately I feel a lot of those same people will still defend them even if it gets shown they cheat in game benchmarks too.

It's all a matter of them weighing the options and picking the choice they see most fit. I personally think they made the wrong choice, but only time will tell.

[ChrisRay]

I'm pissed at nVidia vamp, they leaned on me homies to try and get me in trouble and made it all personal to me.


You can't seriously take this personally. It's just a benchmark, I can understand you not liking what they did, But its still just a benchmark.

[digitalwanderer]

Originally posted by ChrisRay
You can't seriously take this personally. It's just a benchmark, I can understand you not liking what they did, But its still just a benchmark.

No, nVidia got in contact with me boss at EliteBastards about an e-mail I wrote him and some things I'd been saying about nVidia on the web. It caused some consternation and it ended up with me leaving staff at EliteBastards so nVidia can't try and get to me thru my friends again.

I don't take the benchmark bit personal....but the strong-arm, behind the scene tactics I DO take personally when it involves my friends.

So yeah, I am enjoying this. I'm enjoying this immensly and plan to continue doing so. :)

[Grrrpoop]

Originally posted by digitalwanderer
No, nVidia got in contact with me boss at EliteBastards about an e-mail I wrote him and some things I'd been saying about nVidia on the web. It caused some consternation and it ended up with me leaving staff at EliteBastards so nVidia can't try and get to me thru my friends again.
So much for free speech - nVidia is US based yeah? What about the First Ammendment that gets brought up so much in moral issues, doesn't that apply here? surely you have the right to point out when nvidia are being totally wank..

I think you did the right thing leavin EB tho, you're a free Agent now, untouchable :D (over-dramatic, but true lol) .. this all falls apart if you happen to like being touched tho http://www.harlow.nildram.co.uk/img/smiley/naughty.gif

Originally posted by digitalwanderer
So yeah, I am enjoying this. I'm enjoying this immensly and plan to continue doing so. :)
Good for you :)

ChrisRay: I thought your summary of the DX standards situation was excellent http://www.harlow.nildram.co.uk/img/smiley/face_Thumbs.png

I'm a little worried by the implications of your closing comments, about OGL not being standardised..

Carmack must have a spent a significant amount of time creating the nV30 path.. surely we don't want Dev's having to create such different paths for each IHV (well, for nvidia it seems) just because they insist on doing things differently to the otherwise agreed norm..?

It'll be interesting to see what's happened to STALKER since nVidia took control, and how shader support pans out on the R3x0..

Likewise with the FULL version of Doom3, and what differences (if any) exist between the nV30 and ARB2 paths.

But that's waaaaay in the future ;)

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by Onde Pik
I am pretty sure Nvidia had some bean counters on this waybefore the release of the nv30. And aparently they found that cheating would be worth it. They didn't just decide to cheat on a whim... I am pretty sure about that.

Yes, but I am pretty sure that if the NV3x didn't fall flat on its face in 3dmark03 they wouldn't have cheated in it. It wouldn't have been worth it.

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by euan
BTW the mimimum entry fee to the Futuremark hardware beta program is $5000/yr. :D

As I pointed out somewhere else nvidia was a Strategic Beta member. The highest member in the program, along with some other companies.

Surely it doesn't cost only $5000 for that status. We don't know how much nvidia was paying.

[Nv40]

an interesting discussion with diferents points of view
about what we know .

http://www.guru3d.com/forum/showthread.php?&threadid=54736

[digitalwanderer]

Originally posted by Nv40
an interesting discussion with diferents points of view
about what we know .

http://www.guru3d.com/forum/showthread.php?&threadid=54736

Pagh, just because the fanboys outweigh the more common sense and logical type doesn't necessarily make it more true. :lol:

The big argument there again seems to boil down to "3dm2k3 isn't a good game bench", which it ain't really supposed to be anyways. :rolleyes:

Thanks for pointing out another fun place to play though, it's been a while since I posted at Guru3D...I kind of forgot about 'em.

[aaronspink]

Originally posted by Slappi
You obviously cannot read a financial statement. nVidia has a small Debt/equity. Here do some reading:

http://biz.yahoo.com/p/n/nvda.html

Commenting about reading and then not knowing how to read a D/E number????

Nvidia has a .32 D/E which is high. For example Intel has a .04, ATI has a .04.

Nvidia is carrying 32% of their total equity in debt. That is fairly large.

[digitalwanderer]

Originally posted by aaronspink
Commenting about reading and then not knowing how to read a D/E number????

Nvidia has a .32 D/E which is high. For example Intel has a .04, ATI has a .04.

Nvidia is carrying 32% of their total equity in debt. That is fairly large.

Could someone explain that to me please in little words? I do NOT speak financeese and I have no clue what those words mean and I really want to! :confused:

Does this mean that nVidia doesn't really have bazillions of dollars and can't just blow off all these accusations? :confused:

[Clockwork]

I don't know in little words, but this is the definition (cut & paste, lol):



Debt/Equity Ratio
The most recent quarter long-term debt divided by the most recent quarter common stock equity. The debt/equity ratio is a measure of the extent to which a firm's capital is provided by owners or lenders. Aggressive companies often rely more heavily on debt than conservative companies. A greater reliance on debt can mean greater profitability for shareholders, but also greater risk in the event things go sour. Generally the debt/equity ratio should be 30% or lower, but as with most ratios, this one varies by industry. Companies in industries that aren't very competitive or are subject to tight regulation can afford to carry more debt, as can companies whose markets tend to be reliable. Food makers, for instance, know that people have to eat. But even here, there are caveats. Cigarette companies were considered to be in a business with reliable demand and thus able to take on more debt, but the regulatory and legal climate is changing fast.

[digitalwanderer]

No, that just made my confusion increase by a couple of factors of ten. :(

[Nv40]

Originally posted by digitalwanderer
Pagh, just because the fanboys outweigh the more common sense and logical type doesn't necessarily make it more true. :lol:

The big argument there again seems to boil down to "3dm2k3 isn't a good game bench", which it ain't really supposed to be anyways. :rolleyes:

Thanks for pointing out another fun place to play though, it's been a while since I posted at Guru3D...I kind of forgot about 'em.


i told you diferents points of view...
what happens DIgi? dont like to hear opinions diferents than yours ? :)
if you like to hear only what you like ,there are already other forums for that. :)

[digitalwanderer]

Originally posted by Nv40
what happens DIgi? dont like to hear opinions diferents than yours ? :)

No, I do get a little tired of hearing the same flawed arguments and half-truths told over and over though. Hell, I even get tired of proving them wrong anymore. :(

Spooky, I might be burned out on nV bashing already....who'd of thunk it. :eek2:

if you like to hear only what you like ,there are already other forums for that. :)

Really? Where, I'd love to join 'em! :D

[micron]

Yea...the Guru3D forums.....I've been there a few times over the last couple of days. They so blindingly believe that Futuremark is satan, that it's pointless to post there. It figures that NV40 would bring them up. I dont even think NV40 cares about this whole cheating matter, he's just a bottom feeder, trolling for victims to mouth off to. You know when he signs off the web at night, he beats his dog.

[Solomon]

Originally posted by digitalwanderer
No, nVidia got in contact with me boss at EliteBastards about an e-mail I wrote him and some things I'd been saying about nVidia on the web. It caused some consternation and it ended up with me leaving staff at EliteBastards so nVidia can't try and get to me thru my friends again. I don't take the benchmark bit personal....but the strong-arm, behind the scene tactics I DO take personally when it involves my friends.

So yeah, I am enjoying this. I'm enjoying this immensly and plan to continue doing so. :)

So let me understand this correctly. Nvidia wrote the "Pro nVidia" EliteBastards about you and what you been saying on this matter and EliteBastards probably said to ya, "Dude... We are going to have to let you go because you aren't kissing nVidia's arse like us"... ? ? :)

You know what, you probably are better off without Elite Bastards. Aren't they the ones who tried to write that article to make it sound like nVidia didn't do no wrong?

Regards,
D. Solomon Jr.
*********.com

[Nv40]

Originally posted by micron
Yea...the Guru3D forums.....I've been there a few times over the last couple of days. They so blindingly believe that Futuremark is satan, that it's pointless to post there. It figures that NV40 would bring them up. I dont even think NV40 cares about this whole cheating matter, he's just a bottom feeder, trolling for victims to mouth off to. You know when he signs off the web at night, he beats his dog.

hehe... :D

very funny ,, not im not that bad.. :angel2:
but i dont see anything wrong with listening others points of view .
you will find many interesting information when you allow to listen
others point of view , from others who think diferent than you...

people focuse to much in standar directx9 syntetic benchmarks ,
and even buy video cards ,for the scores of 3dmark alone. (valid or invalid)
without knowing that by the time we see games using 3dmark "vision" of directx9 games, there will be DIrectx10 cards already in the market..
Most played games according to gamespy today ,still are directx6/7 games.. but now we have DIrectx9 cards :)
i can't imagine just 1 game in the following years that will require a directx9
card as minimun. and top game engines HL2/Doom3/Ut2003 that will be guide of many other games of the future ,still are based around DX7/and Dx8. means by the time your new DIrectX _ card play those games ,there will be another DIrectx_. so unless you plann to stay with your video card for 3-4 years!!! , and unless Nvidia stop working closely with
gamedevelopers ,and unless game developers use the eficiency or lack
of eficiency of Futuremark programmers to stress video cards and
performance to its maximun limits.
then yes use 3dmark as a measure. but by that time ,you will need to upgrade your card. thats why i say ,just buy the better card for the games
you would like to play . thats the only thing that can tell you with accuracy
how your experience will be there. ;)

[micron]

NV40,
You survived my verbal attack like a true champion, and didnt skip a beat in the point you were trying to get across.
Your a biased SOB(as am I)...but I totally respect you as a member of these forums now.
(I will probably still throw rocks at you though)

[Star_Hunter]

Originally posted by digitalwanderer
No, nVidia got in contact with me boss at EliteBastards about an e-mail I wrote him and some things I'd been saying about nVidia on the web. It caused some consternation and it ended up with me leaving staff at EliteBastards so nVidia can't try and get to me thru my friends again.

I don't take the benchmark bit personal....but the strong-arm, behind the scene tactics I DO take personally when it involves my friends.

So yeah, I am enjoying this. I'm enjoying this immensly and plan to continue doing so. :)

You act like this is something new for a company to do microsoft and intel do this on a daily basis yet I dont see anyone getting all pissed about it everyone just looks the other way.


As for nv3x I dont see the problem with having both an nv3x path and a r3xx. It ends up being like Amd vs. Intel. The athlon doesn't require much optimization, and will perform fairly predictably whether you structure things one way or another. The Intel P4, on the other hand, must to be specifically supported in order to shine against the athlon. The Question is why is no one willing to Optimize the NV3x then!!!

[Tsunami]

why are you people in this forum it's clearly obvious you don't like nvidia what if nvidia were not cheating but were cheated maybe it was out of retaliation we will never know for certain but i'm with nvidia all the way. Everyone in this forum should be



shame on you all :(

[hithere]

Originally posted by Tsunami
why are you people in this forum it's clearly obvious you don't like nvidia what if nvidia were not cheating but were cheated maybe it was out of retaliation we will never know for certain but i'm with nvidia all the way. Everyone in this forum should be



shame on you all :(

Seems they were cheated in Unreal Tournament and various other game benchmarks as well. Oh, and Fraps. Fraps is cheating Nvidia, according to their PR department. Forget benchmarking the 5900, folks. Nvidia, instead of removing the driver detections that do things like ditch trilinear filtering in UT2k3 and completely invalidate your scores in 3dMark, simply added encryption to thier drivers to make it impossible to see what other "optimizations" they are performing.