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PreservedSwine
05-24-03, 10:17 AM
Not sure if this is in the right forum- just move it if it isn't:)

From the Inq...for what it's worth....

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=9650
FROM WHAT we've heard through the grapevine, Nvidia is none too happy about the patching of Dawn...
Now, however, we know why Nvidia never released Dawn for any other video cards. Not only can the Radeon 9700/9800 render the little pixie just as well as any GF FX-equipped card, there's some unofficial evidence that suggests ATI's flagship products are even better at it then Nvidia's, even when using an OpenGL wrapper, which, as we all know, degrades video performance.

Smokey
05-24-03, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by PreservedSwine
Not sure if this is in the right forum- just move it if it isn't:)

From the Inq...for what it's worth....

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=9650

Take that with a grain of salt, it is clear that the ATI card DONT render Dawn as good as the GFFX cards do, it may still look very good, but it is nowhere the same or better!

digitalwanderer
05-24-03, 10:36 AM
No, the quality isn't QUITE as high in some areas...but the speed is definately balls-out better! :lol:

Glad to hear that nVidia isn't happy about this, I don't want them to be happy about ANYTHING until they catch a clue! :mad:

Hellbinder
05-24-03, 11:01 AM
Take that with a grain of salt, it is clear that the ATI card DONT render Dawn as good as the GFFX cards do, it may still look very good, but it is nowhere the same or better!

Huh???? :rolleyes:

Becuase the Eyebrows are missing??? I think it must be a tradfe off then becuase there are some areas like the wings, and eye reflections that definitly look better on the ATi card.

So I take what *YOU* say with a grain of salt.

Uttar
05-24-03, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
Glad to hear that nVidia isn't happy about this, I don't want them to be happy about ANYTHING until they catch a clue! :mad:

The BS is only beggining.
Are you ready? ( TM )

Uttar

EDIT: To Hellbinder:
I'm working on a small patch to make the NV3x look even better than the R3xx ( read: true FP32. Little difference, but still, it's better :P )
Oh, sure, it'll be an awful lot slower ( beside on the NV35, if nVidia's claim of 100% FP performance is true, where it should be nearly as fast ) - but hey, you get what you pay for!

Sazar
05-24-03, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by Uttar
The BS is only beggining.
Are you ready? ( TM )

Uttar

EDIT: To Hellbinder:
I'm working on a small patch to make the NV3x look even better than the R3xx ( read: true FP32. Little difference, but still, it's better :P )
Oh, sure, it'll be an awful lot slower ( beside on the NV35, if nVidia's claim of 100% FP performance is true, where it should be nearly as fast ) - but hey, you get what you pay for!

oh yah uttar... well check this out...

Are you ready for more? (TM)

:D

Moose
05-24-03, 12:16 PM
Since when did Nvidia start caring about image quality????

Did I miss something????

Wag
05-24-03, 01:07 PM
A few years ago there was this little company named 3DFX, who had some products which did not support 32bit graphics. They claimed consumers didn't want this "feature".

At the time, there was this little startup named nVidia, whose products did...

rellingsen
05-24-03, 02:38 PM
The Dawn demo runs pretty well on my 9700 Pro. I only get some rendering flaws using the "regular" mode (eyelashes? missing). In "Ultra" mode everything appears OK.
Reg.
http://pages.prodigy.net/ellingsen1/dawn1.JPG
Ultra
http://pages.prodigy.net/ellingsen1/dawn2.JPG

Dazz
05-24-03, 02:59 PM
If it runs great in Ultra Mode who cares about regular mode :)

Dazz
05-24-03, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by Wag
A few years ago there was this little company named 3DFX, who had some products which did not support 32bit graphics. They claimed consumers didn't want this "feature".

At the time, there was this little startup named nVidia, whose products did... I think they died out due to the extra code needed for glide (to get best performance), and lets face it nVIDIA is now making the same mistake with their NV3x range.

ChrisW
05-24-03, 03:02 PM
The rendering errors are due to some functions written incorrectly in the wrapper. Maybe the guys that made it will release an updated version that fixes these problems. I think it's amasing they did such a great job on their first release.

solofly
05-24-03, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
Glad to hear that nVidia isn't happy about this, I don't want them to be happy about ANYTHING until they catch a clue! :mad:

And they allow you to open your mouth around here? Such positive attitude...

ragejg
05-24-03, 05:24 PM
solofly, read his posts... see where he's coming from... I'm not saying you have to totally agree, but... i dunno, I'm actually startin to feel a little funny about nvidia's practices lately as well... I'm bein patient as possible (and have said as little as possible on the subject since january actually)... gawd I miss my 4200/1.33 t-bird with 4.40's and 30.82's pushin 10k 3dmarks (with no mentions of any companies cheating) and bein happy with the gameplay and image quality... with both sides of the vidcard community bein slightly less "stab-you-istic" and the general feeling of "the company cares for the enthusiast $ just as much as th Joe consumer $)... were members of the marketing board COMPLETELY SMITTEN by the amount of money all those

$44.95 TNT2's
$49.95 GF2MX200
$59.95 GF2MX200 tv-out
$69.95 GF2MX400
$79.95 GF4MX420
$89.95 GF4MX440SE-SDR
$99.95 GF4MX440-DDR's

... made that this "undercutting the customer" attitude slowly seeped straight into the offices of those helping cater to the true enthusiast community?

See, I aint gonna start no angry thread on this (though I am feelin violent listenin to SOAD's version of shame on a nigga:firedevil :super: :super: :banghead: :banghead: :super: :firedevil

Miester_V
05-24-03, 05:30 PM
tEh ATi fairEz is prettier than tEh Nvidia fairEz. :D

jAkUp
05-24-03, 05:30 PM
i wish we had a 3rd and 4th company around... i still remember the 3dfx/3dlabs/nv/ati days... those were great times, there were so many cards that performed well in quake2... 3dfx was on top, but with the lower iq. now it seems all we have left is ati and nv, partly due to the super high cost to create such a fast card.

i used to be a huge 3dfx fan, and the day they went out of business was a day of sadness for me..:( lol

StealthHawk
05-24-03, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
No, the quality isn't QUITE as high in some areas...but the speed is definately balls-out better! :lol:

It's not rendering everything, so that speed advantage means nothing. nvidia got extra speed in 3dmark03 by not rendering everything/not rendering everything correctly.

StealthHawk
05-24-03, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by Uttar
EDIT: To Hellbinder:
I'm working on a small patch to make the NV3x look even better than the R3xx ( read: true FP32. Little difference, but still, it's better :P )
Oh, sure, it'll be an awful lot slower ( beside on the NV35, if nVidia's claim of 100% FP performance is true, where it should be nearly as fast ) - but hey, you get what you pay for!

I'm wondering how true that statement is. See the new 3dmark03 Build330 results for example. Why did nvidia's PS2.0 scores drop so much even on NV35 cards? Or perhaps a more pertinent question is, how did they get the extra speed on NV35? NV35 doesn't have Integer ops in the shaders anymore, right?

Ghola
05-25-03, 06:25 AM
Originally posted by Miester_V
tEh ATi fairEz is prettier than tEh Nvidia fairEz. :D

nice 1st or 2nd line.!!? don't matter~!

Sazar
05-25-03, 06:50 AM
Originally posted by jAkUp
i wish we had a 3rd and 4th company around... i still remember the 3dfx/3dlabs/nv/ati days... those were great times, there were so many cards that performed well in quake2... 3dfx was on top, but with the lower iq. now it seems all we have left is ati and nv, partly due to the super high cost to create such a fast card.

i used to be a huge 3dfx fan, and the day they went out of business was a day of sadness for me..:( lol

I have a feeling they went out of biz not so much due to cost of competition but costs of bogus lawsuits by the IHV that shall remain un-named... but is well known to all :)

ChrisRay
05-25-03, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by Sazar
I have a feeling they went out of biz not so much due to cost of competition but costs of bogus lawsuits by the IHV that shall remain un-named... but is well known to all :)


Well 3dfx was just as sue happy as the next company, They triggered the lawsuit finger just as much as Nvidia,

Mud Slinging, basically sums it up


I'll never forgive 3dfx for suing sega, Even tho they were aware of the stipulations of the black belt contract.

Sazar
05-25-03, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by ChrisRay
Well 3dfx was just as sue happy as the next company, They triggered the lawsuit finger just as much as Nvidia,

Mud Slinging, basically sums it up

I guess they are as paranoid as each other... well... while 3dfx existed :)

ChrisRay
05-25-03, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by Sazar
I guess they are as paranoid as each other... well... while 3dfx existed :)


Actually I've found Nvidia practices to be quite similar to 3dfx's recently. It would seem they intergrated more than 3dfx tech ;)

Ghola
05-26-03, 04:01 AM
Originally posted by rellingsen
The Dawn demo runs pretty well on my 9700 Pro. I only get some rendering flaws using the "regular" mode (eyelashes? missing). In "Ultra" mode everything appears OK.
Reg.
http://pages.prodigy.net/ellingsen1/dawn1.JPG
Ultra
http://pages.prodigy.net/ellingsen1/dawn2.JPG


9500 pro 6X AA 16X AF/dawn ultra

praxis22
05-26-03, 01:49 PM
Hi,

I'll admit up front I own a 9700pro, I bought it two weeks after reading the review on Tom's, I bought it soley for bragging rights, because at the time it was the fastest GFX card in the world .

But Like I said, I do think the man has a point. What exactly does the FX bring to the table? Nvidia have never been about IQ, they've always been the fastest, your game may not look better, on our card but it will run faster..

For what it's worth, I do think the FX images look better, the hair is more lustrous, the eyelashes work, the lips look better in some shots, but it's a still. The ATI hack may sacrifice a little IQ, but it's a hack, it's making like an FX in realtime, and by some accounts at least it's actually running faster. I don't know what mine's running at FPS wise, but I do know that it runs flawlessly at 16x12@85hz with 4xAA and 16xAF, it has had moments where I've noticed the odd raster line, it has glitched, (especially when I tried to run at 18x14) but it's a hack, I imagine if it was actually coded for the hardware it would run a little of not a lot faster.

Now availability and cost aside, (I checked, I can get a 9800 now or wait an unspeciified period for 5900, same shop where I got my 9700, so I know they're good) I'm beginning to think of what Jason Rubin of Naughty Dog said at the GDC recently. Untill this point hardware has driven games, but we're now getting to the point where "better GFX" simply won't cut it. UT3 is beautifull, the demo flies on my system, but who has the time to look at the scenery when if you stand still for a second you get shot...

He said that the new games were going to be about developing believeable characters, case in point, you look at Dawn you think, "babe!" not, ooh, nice vertex shaders. It's about creating an emotional response. it's thinking "F*%k!" when you hit the beach for the first time in Halo, it's the "Christ! will you look at that" as you flip into a dogfight in Freelancer., and the card effortlessly throws the entiire game space around you as you move.

I expect that uses will be found for all the new bells and whistles, but how much longer will it take to program? Will it make the games any better.? Will you really care if the pixel pipe is 32bit when your ass is getting shot off?

Nvidia have always been about speed at the top end and selling in bulk at the low end. But people bought in bulk because it was an Nvidia, everything else sucked. Now ATI doesn't suck, and the AIW cards are dropping down to the low level too. Whither Nvidia? To quota Howard the Duck :) "Where do you go and what do you do the night after you've saved the world?"

What's Nvidia's Selling point now? "We used to be fast..." "Our IQ is a little better... "

[shrug]

Discuss :)

later
jb