Extremetech Just Updated their Cheating article with a *Correction* affecting ATi.

[Hellbinder]

Please people Do not Ruin this thread any longer. Address the Topic or please find something else to do.

[digitalwanderer]

Originally posted by BigBerthaEA
Personal attack? OMFG.... Had enough of the double standards for one evening......

Hey, let's get one thing straight...I do the personal attacks on you; not Hellbinder. You're just targeting him because you know you can't get my goat but you think you can get his. :mad: :lol:

Originally posted by Hellbinder
It just unbelievable what goes on around here. Dont you guys realize that its BECAUSE of some of the exapples of posts made in this thread that I get upset and out of hand sometimes???

People in this Forum are a Self-Fullfilling Prophecy why is it that the mods cant see it? I generally dont go out of my way to make endless personal attaks on people, Or make pointless posts in the middle of thoughtfull discussions.

Look at some of the Junk tossed into this thread. Some people are so Blind they cant see the Forest For the Trees.

They're only resorting to personal attacks on ya since they can't attack your reasoning. Remember you gotta respect the insulter before the insult hurts, then have some fun laughing at them. ;)

Seriously, they really are all just ganging up with the personal attacks on you HB because they think they can get you to crack...do NOT let them!

It's what they want, don't give it to 'em. Let them suck on nVidia's silence and just laugh at their futile attempts to lash out at the messenger when their anger is sort of TOTALLY misdirected. :)

[deejaya]

Originally posted by Hellbinder
Please people Do not Ruin this thread any longer. Address the Topic or please find something else to do.

[gmontem]

Originally posted by Hellbinder
Hmm.. Thats where we part company. First ATi did not Substiture the Shader, they took the exact same shader and slightly reordered the instrction execution. Which imo is a 100% Valid *optimization* and it would be the Same for Nvidia if thats all they did.

I wonder how it will be viewed by everyone if the GPU did instruction reordering. Don't Intel and AMD processors reorder instructions, too? If so, maybe it's time someone cries foul on these two companies for cheating on CPU benchmarks.

[PreservedSwine]

So extremetech left AF on in the 330 test, but off for the 320 test?

And the difference is even less for ATI?

Still an optimization, pretty funny that happened though, though no one will ever remember it, the damage has already been done...

[deejaya]

Originally posted by gmontem
I wonder how it will be viewed by everyone if the GPU did instruction reordering. Don't Intel and AMD processors reorder instructions, too? If so, maybe it's time someone cries foul on these two companies for cheating on CPU benchmarks.

I would call it pretty foul if they had application detection for 3dMark inside an AMD/P4, that re-ordered instructions for that application, and that application only. If it applied to everything though, that's an optimization.

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by Hellbinder
People in this Forum are a Self-Fullfilling Prophecy why is it that the mods cant see it? I generally dont go out of my way to make endless personal attaks on people, Or make pointless posts in the middle of thoughtfull discussions.

Thanks for the generalization about us mods.

Ignore the nvidia fanboys and your blood pressure will thank you for it, and you won't get in trouble around here.

Notice how you also said you "generally dont go out of my way to make endless personal attaks on people." But you do, and you have, albeit not as much lately.

[PreservedSwine]

Originally posted by deejaya
I would call it pretty foul if they had application detection for 3dMark inside an AMD/P4, that re-ordered instructions for that application, and that application only. If it applied to everything though, that's an optimization.

What?? So no optimizations unless they affect all software equally??:confused:

Application detection is widley used in the graphics industry....All companies have mechanisms to detect the game or game engine they're running, and include optimizations to tzke advantage of their hardware.

An optimization may only help in one application. The same kind of optimization is being used to detect 3dm03, just as in the real world, with real games.

[deejaya]

Originally posted by PreservedSwine
What?? So no optimizations unless they affect all software equally??:confused:

Application detection is widley used in the graphics industry....All companies have mechanisms to detect the game or game engine they're running, and include optimizations to tzke advantage of their hardware.

An optimization may only help in one application. The same kind of optimization is being used to detect 3dm03, just as in the real world, with real games.

Well, I have been talking primarily about 3dMark03. I see no problem at all in using application detection in games to take advantage of the card through optimization. But, the only optimizations you should see in benchmarks should be ones that work for every other game out, not just for that particular benchmark on it's own. I hope I've put my opinion clearer now, I can see how you could have gotten confused.

[PreservedSwine]

Originally posted by deejaya
Well, I have been talking primarily about 3dMark03. I see no problem at all in using application detection in games to take advantage of the card through optimization. But, the only optimizations you should see in benchmarks should be ones that work for every other game out, not just for that particular benchmark on it's own. I hope I've put my opinion clearer now, I can see how you could have gotten confused.

That's cool, it appears we just disagree:)

[deejaya]

Originally posted by PreservedSwine
That's cool, it appears we just disagree:)

:thumbsup: I really can see both sides of this issue. My opinion, right or wrong, lies on the side that optimizing purely/solely for benchmarks is cheating. It's ultimately up to Futuremark really, but I think they would be silly to allow benchmark specific optimizations, it would lead to even more problems with policing the code.

[PreservedSwine]

Originally posted by deejaya
...It's ultimately up to Futuremark really, but ...

That's creepy..... I almost, verbatim, said the same thing:beer:

In a perfect world, that's what Futuremark could do. But I doubt they have the resources available to inspect each and every driver release for such things. Until then, I think it's up to the little old web-sites and general public to stay on top of things to keep the BIG GUYS honest.

The intelligent and well informed customer will not put up with such nonsense...I hope:)

[Nv40]

Originally posted by deejaya
Measuring cheating is a bit lame.

hehe... that was funny.. :D

in the future sites will have a cheatometer ,if the companies increase
their performance with cheats beyond the 3% ,then it will be Bad cheat..
if the performance is under 3% is a good cheat. :)

[R.Carter]

Originally posted by Hellbinder
i keep trying to tell people that i am really a PowerVR fanboy without a product. But no one believes me.

You wait Till PowerVR series 5 Hits the street in Q3/4 this year. There are going to be some Shocked people out there. :D

Hmm... Kyro III rising from the ashes? (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=9754)

[digitalwanderer]

Originally posted by R.Carter
Hmm... Kyro III rising from the ashes? (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=9754)

I'd LOVE that! The more the merrier, and the better for us! :D

[Red Dog]

Originally posted by BigBerthaEA
If you are as self-righteous about "right and wrong" as you want us to believe here, then your answer should have been

Absofreakinglutely!,

instead of

Honestly i would hope so

I know my answer would have been Absofreakinglutely!.....


/puts on referee hat/

That quote is not a personal attack imo. I truly dont think it was intended as one. Maybe the word "self-righteous" was the flashpoint.

quote:
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If the evidence was on the other foot and it was Ati that was under the gun, would stick to your opinions? Would you blast Ati as well?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Same situation, flip the company names. I would say the question is fair game. Absofreakinlutely is the moraly correct answer.

HB dont take that as an attack, I agree with you on most points.

I blasted ATI for at least 6 years when I thought they were missguided, now Nvidia is in the hot seat. times change.

the 9800pro is the best card Ive ever owned and Ive owned plenty. (tnt, tnt2u, gf1, gf2u, gf3ti500, gf4ti4600, 3dfx banshee, v3500, ati rage pro)

as you can see Im a long time NV fan, but with the fiasco's of late Im really dissapointed with nvidia.

Im still pissed about the "Are you ready?" advertising campaign which strung me along for months waiting for a bucket of crap to arrive. meanwhile thousands of people enjoyed phenomenal image quality for the last 6+ months courtesy of their shiny new 9700pro's. I can easily accept nv30's slower overall speed, but the image quality conscessions I can never forgive.