here's one to bicker about.....

[anxdiety]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/license_veil


this should be a gooder..... Similar to the towlies wanting to wear their towels when they become RCMP here in canada.....

[LORD-eX-Bu]

roflmao towlies!:rofl

I call the stupid ones dune coons but thats not really something to be proud about.

Idiot people I swear! Not willing to comply with the criterea and abide by the regulations for aquiring a license(which is a privelidge not a right here in the US lefties) then she and anyone else who wants to pull the same stunt should take their towl and ride a damn bike.

[1stFlight]

As you usual you missed the point

In the U.S. ( I think you live here, right) we're not allowed to discriminate on the basis of religion. Hence, the whole concept of religious freedom.

Unfortuantely when that was drafted, no one had the concept of a drivers license or any other form of ID. You were who you said you were. This case is only showing the limitations of the current system. A suggestion, to address Islamic needs might be, a thumbprint system could be used in place of a photograph.

From a legal standpoint its ugly (hence why it's in court).

Us Lefties realize in Life there are shades of grey not absolute black and white.

Originally posted by [eNv]-LORD-eX-Bu
roflmao towlies!:rofl

I call the stupid ones dune coons but thats not really something to be proud about.

Idiot people I swear! Not willing to comply with the criterea and abide by the regulations for aquiring a license(which is a privelidge not a right here in the US lefties) then she and anyone else who wants to pull the same stunt should take their towl and ride a damn bike.

[Ryoko]

Originally posted by 1stFlight
As you usual you missed the point

In the U.S. ( I think you live here, right) we're not allowed to discriminate on the basis of religion. Hence, the whole concept of religious freedom.

Unfortuantely when that was drafted, no one had the concept of a drivers license or any other form of ID. You were who you said you were. This case is only showing the limitations of the current system. A suggestion, to address Islamic needs might be, a thumbprint system could be used in place of a photograph.

From a legal standpoint its ugly (hence why it's in court).

Us Lefties realize in Life there are shades of grey not absolute black and white.

laws are made for various reasons. hell, if we allow her to get a license photo with her veil on, all someone needs to do if they steal her license is wear a veil and all hell will break loose.

speaking of laws that discriminate against religion, i'm sure you wouldn't mind if we legalized marijuana so that rostofarians (sp?) could practice their religion here unhindered. hell, i could make a religion that states that you must disobey the law whenever possible.

[UDawg]

Originally posted by 1stFlight
As you usual you missed the point

In the U.S. ( I think you live here, right) we're not allowed to discriminate on the basis of religion. Hence, the whole concept of religious freedom.

Unfortuantely when that was drafted, no one had the concept of a drivers license or any other form of ID. You were who you said you were. This case is only showing the limitations of the current system. A suggestion, to address Islamic needs might be, a thumbprint system could be used in place of a photograph.

From a legal standpoint its ugly (hence why it's in court).

Us Lefties realize in Life there are shades of grey not absolute black and white.

The law is you need photo id. The good of the many out weight the few. Oh wait this a liberal I am reply to. Never mind I guess the argument should be. Gee this is a gray area so we should make a exception. :rolleyes: Instead of talking about gray areas why dont you use the gray matter in ur head. :rolleyes:

[DaveW]

When you immigrate to a country you are expected to respect and abide to that countries laws, not expect that country to change to accomodate you. Just in the same way that a western girl couldn't move to Iran and walk around in public without a veil and wearing a miniskirt.

[LORD-eX-Bu]

Originally posted by 1stFlight
As you usual you missed the point

In the U.S. ( I think you live here, right) we're not allowed to discriminate on the basis of religion. Hence, the whole concept of religious freedom.

Unfortuantely when that was drafted, no one had the concept of a drivers license or any other form of ID. You were who you said you were. This case is only showing the limitations of the current system. A suggestion, to address Islamic needs might be, a thumbprint system could be used in place of a photograph.

From a legal standpoint its ugly (hence why it's in court).

Us Lefties realize in Life there are shades of grey not absolute black and white.

no, you missed the point. These people don't really care about taking the picture, hell, there is a large muslim population in the United States, they don't pull this crap, why?! because they aren't all black and white, they know that there are certain things that have to be done and they themselves have grey areas for. Such as drivers licenses and women, unlike this idiot who wants to waste tax payer money and time on her little publicity stunt, hell, these types only want special treatment. That is all this is about.

Starts in school where these types are pushing for a heavy emphasis over all other subjects for studies concerning Islam(haha, don't tell me that it is for that better tolerance after 9/11 BS) and now this crap. Hell, I should say I'm a muslim so then I can wear one of those things or a burka on my next driver's license. Wow, then I'd have something to show off:lol:

the law is the law, shouldn't be any grey areas there, don't know what you are thinking.

[Sazar]

Originally posted by UDawg71
The law is you need photo id. The good of the many out weight the few. Oh wait this a liberal I am reply to. Never mind I guess the argument should be. Gee this is a gray area so we should make a exception. :rolleyes: Instead of talking about gray areas why dont you use the gray matter in ur head. :rolleyes:

hey.. I am a liberal :D

but yes... in a situation such as this it is no use arguing religion.. it is the LAW to have a photo id.. the fact that one expects to have their picture taken with something impeding the picture is RIDICULOUS...

only thing I can thnk of is perhaps changing the wording stating it is mandatory to have a photo ID with nothing blocking the image of the face regardless of religious beliefs... in order to avoid just such a situation...

I cannot imagine the court finding in favor of this person... if it does... it is high time for all our laws to be re-written from scratch... cept for the free speech and separation of god and country...

[intercede007]

http://images.ibsys.com/2003/0527/2230899.jpg


She didn't have a problem taking off her veil in that mug shot photo snapped after breaking a foster childs arm and beating two others, did she?

[Sazar]

Originally posted by intercede007
http://images.ibsys.com/2003/0527/2230899.jpg


She didn't have a problem taking off her veil in that mug shot photo snapped after breaking a foster childs arm and beating two others, did she?

:rofl

[1stFlight]

I guess we should only be learning about how the Europeans taught the Indians to plant corn, right?

Either way, lets see how this case turns out. Oh eNv, there's lots of grey areas in law, hence why there are lawyers and courts. They "interpet" the law.

Btw - DaveW, in countries like that it's their law based on religion,so in going there it's respecting their laws (As well as their religion).

EDIT - you know what, in paying it further thought, I'll give you guys this one. There are thousands of Muslims that live here, why is she the first to pipe up?


Originally posted by [eNv]-LORD-eX-Bu

Starts in school where these types are pushing for a heavy emphasis over all other subjects for studies concerning Islam(haha, don't tell me that it is for that better tolerance after 9/11 BS) and now this crap. Hell, I should say I'm a muslim so then I can wear one of those things or a burka on my next driver's license. Wow, then I'd have something to show off:lol:

the law is the law, shouldn't be any grey areas there, don't know what you are thinking.

[Sazar]

Originally posted by 1stFlight
I guess we should only be learning about how the Europeans taught the Indians to plant corn, right?

Either way, lets see how this case turns out.

Btw - DaveW, in countries like that it's their law based on religion,so in going there it's respecting their laws (As well as theri religion).

eh ?

/me points to the top of his head... above which that response just flew clean over...

you'll have to spell the point out for me m8... I dunno what europeans and indians thing you are talking about there...

??

btw... in america... american laws apply.. is that not so ?

same thing for americans in foreign nations.. we have to abide by THEIR laws...

case in point.. the lad who got caned in singapore for vandalism... the fact that the US decided to cause a stink about it is moot... the laws applied and were enforced... same here...

[1stFlight]

That was my commentary on our education system, wherein it was taught that the Europeans taught the Indians how to plant corn (yes, they actually taught this).... basically I wanted to point out to eNv, learning about other nations history and people isn't a bad thing, it might actually reduce our ignorance.

Yes, in America, American laws apply and the same in other countries. Point made.

Originally posted by Sazar
eh ?

/me points to the top of his head... above which that response just flew clean over...

you'll have to spell the point out for me m8... I dunno what europeans and indians thing you are talking about there...

??

btw... in america... american laws apply.. is that not so ?

same thing for americans in foreign nations.. we have to abide by THEIR laws...

case in point.. the lad who got caned in singapore for vandalism... the fact that the US decided to cause a stink about it is moot... the laws applied and were enforced... same here...

[netviper13]

That just pisses me off, why would anyone allow themselves to be deprecated in such a manner? I don't mind Islam, but this whole "women can't do anything" business is crap. Get with the times assholes, no God would be that cruel.

[Sazar]

Originally posted by 1stFlight
That was my commentary on our education system, wherein it was taught that the Europeans taught the Indians how to plant corn (yes, they actually taught this).... basically I wanted to point out to eNv, learning about other nations history and people isn't a bad thing, it might actually reduce our ignorance.

Yes, in America, American laws apply and the same in other countries. Point made.

okies.. I C now..

I didnt get that point from your post :)

[1stFlight]

That's nothing, you ought to go to a Muslim country, some are coming up to the 20th (yes I said that right) century. But many don't even give women the right to vote.

And it's not that they can't "do" crap, they "aren't" allowed to do anything. I had a Muslim friend who I talked to about having his wife get a drivers license and he was like, "Why?" .. in the sort of way most would look if you asked them a question about quantum physics.

As for that no God part, read the old Testament, you'll be amazed at how cruel God can be.

Originally posted by netviper13
That just pisses me off, why would anyone allow themselves to be deprecated in such a manner? I don't mind Islam, but this whole "women can't do anything" business is crap. Get with the times assholes, no God would be that cruel.

[netviper13]

Yes the Old Testament was filled with quite a bit of wrath, but common sense would tell us that if every other religion that believes in that specific God (Jews, Christians, etc) at least has equality for the sexes.

[1stFlight]

That's the catch, some Muslims follow the Quran (their bible) to the absolute letter. They make the most devout Christians look like Athiests by comparison. As such, you can't argue faith.

Originally posted by netviper13
Yes the Old Testament was filled with quite a bit of wrath, but common sense would tell us that if every other religion that believes in that specific God (Jews, Christians, etc) at least has equality for the sexes.

[Riptide]

IMHO, she keeps the veil she loses the license. Period end of story.

And kudos to whoever posted the link about the foster child fiasco, this lady is no saint.

My 2 cents...

[intercede007]

Originally posted by Riptide
IMHO, she keeps the veil she loses the license. Period end of story.

And kudos to whoever posted the link about the foster child fiasco, this lady is no saint.

My 2 cents...

Here's the link:

http://www.wftv.com/news/2230721/detail.html

Here's the jist:

She says raising her two young children, a two-year-old and a six-month-old, is difficult, to say the least, without a drivers license. "It's causing me a great deal of stress. I feel like a prisoner in my own home."

It's probably not the first time she felt like a prisoner. Almost five years ago, she took off her veil to be photographed by police for child abuse (photo left). She was arrested in Illinois for beating three-year-old twin foster children and breaking the arm of one of the girls by pushing her down. The children were removed from her home, according to records from the Decatur (Ill.) Police Services.

Freeman apparently hides more than her face. Police reports show she covered the children's bruises with Muslim garb, refused more than once for child care workers to check the children for injuries and told the foster children to lie about the bruises and broken bone. She plead guilty and served 18-months probation.

In another disturbing twist in this story, four years ago Freeman's husband Mark (photo right) was caught with fake IDs bearing his photograph and other people's names. When asked about that, Freeman tried to hide behind a veil of secrecy. Illinois Police found the fake ID's after they arrested Freeman for recklessly firing a gun while he was wearing his Muslim garb.

Police had to get a search warrant to enter his home for their investigation. He told them he could not let them in because they were not of the Muslim faith.

The judge must decide in the nonjury trial whether taking the photo would violate Freeman's religious beliefs and if the state has a compelling interest in not allowing her to obtain a license with her covered face in a photo.

[netviper13]

But Allah says obedient women must punish their children strictly or else they won't grow up properly :rolleyes: /sarcasm

[Riptide]

And to the idea about using fingerprints...

This is a single person, of questionable reputation, insisting on wearing their veil in the DMV photo. One person out of hundreds of millions of other citizens. It is absolute madness to spend boatloads of money on putting some entirely new system into the DMV in order to comply with this one person's request and I don't even care if it actually is more fair or not to do so. It's crazy.

Now, if there were thousands of people filing this exact sort of lawsuit it might be worth considering using fingerprints. Otherwise no way.

[intercede007]

Originally posted by Riptide
And to the idea about using fingerprints...

This is a single person, of questionable reputation, insisting on wearing their veil in the DMV photo. One person out of hundreds of millions of other citizens. It is absolute madness to spend boatloads of money on putting some entirely new system into the DMV in order to comply with this one person's request and I don't even care if it actually is more fair or not to do so. It's crazy.

Now, if there were thousands of people filing this exact sort of lawsuit it might be worth considering using fingerprints. Otherwise no way.


Never going to happen.

Why? Because a police officer can't identify you on sight by your finger prints. Is every club on the planet going to have to buy some sort of machine to connect to a nationwide database to check your fingerprint against the one on the ID to see if you are of age? What about banking transactions? Should I carry an ink pad with me next time I go to the drive-up window? Is the US government going to fingerprint ever citizen and catalog those into a service? Can you imagine the infrastructure necessary to collect, update and maintain ~400 million finger prints?

Your face is obvious, unique and cheap to identify. And for all the ACLU folks, it prevents every citizen from being cataloged into a difficult to maintain database.

Our laws allow churches to operate tax free, and clergy to counsel their followers without fear that the conversation could be used against them in any preceding. The government allows quite a bit of leway and self-government in religion, I think the least they could get in return is a face on a drivers license.

[1stFlight]

Well now, that adds an interesting twist to the case now doesn't it!

Originally posted by intercede007
Here's the link:

http://www.wftv.com/news/2230721/detail.html

Here's the jist:

She says raising her two young children, a two-year-old and a six-month-old, is difficult, to say the least, without a drivers license. "It's causing me a great deal of stress. I feel like a prisoner in my own home."

It's probably not the first time she felt like a prisoner. Almost five years ago, she took off her veil to be photographed by police for child abuse (photo left). She was arrested in Illinois for beating three-year-old twin foster children and breaking the arm of one of the girls by pushing her down. The children were removed from her home, according to records from the Decatur (Ill.) Police Services.

Freeman apparently hides more than her face. Police reports show she covered the children's bruises with Muslim garb, refused more than once for child care workers to check the children for injuries and told the foster children to lie about the bruises and broken bone. She plead guilty and served 18-months probation.

In another disturbing twist in this story, four years ago Freeman's husband Mark (photo right) was caught with fake IDs bearing his photograph and other people's names. When asked about that, Freeman tried to hide behind a veil of secrecy. Illinois Police found the fake ID's after they arrested Freeman for recklessly firing a gun while he was wearing his Muslim garb.

Police had to get a search warrant to enter his home for their investigation. He told them he could not let them in because they were not of the Muslim faith.

The judge must decide in the nonjury trial whether taking the photo would violate Freeman's religious beliefs and if the state has a compelling interest in not allowing her to obtain a license with her covered face in a photo.

[DaveW]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/06/florida.license.veil/index.html

(CNN) -- A Florida judge Friday rejected a woman's request to have her face mostly covered by a veil in the photograph on her state driver's license, the state attorney general's office told CNN.

:ORDER: