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pgn.inertia
06-02-03, 08:53 AM
-- Before I start my rant, let me first state that I once was a true 3Dfx addict (I owned everything from Voodoo Graphics to Voodoo Banshee). That soon changed when they became 3dfx/STB. I have been an NVIDIA follower ever since (NV5/NV10/NV15/NV20/NV25). I hope this NVIDIOT’ism doesn’t reflect too much in the following. Also, in this text I use some harsh words to describe the companies but understand, I don’t hate any one of them, I just try to exaggerate their position to make things more clear. --

The last 2 years (hey, maybe ever since the demise of 3dfx) the world of graphics has become a very interesting situation indeed. From a fairly large group of manufacturers we are down to only two (I’m not counting Matrox and the like, for I think they are manufacturers who focus on niche markets and not on the mainstream or enthusiast markets). Frankly, I thought it would be the death of 3D graphics as a competitive world, for NVIDIA were ruling the world with their offerings. The only competitor left was ATI, which was thought to be a niche market manufacturer too, to a large extent. This situation remained for the longer period of 1 year, up until R200. This core actually was a reasonable one to start with, but it could not rule the market the way NVIDIA products did.

Then something interesting happened. Suddenly ATI bought a console chip developer, ArtX. To me this was a sign of ATI leaving the PC graphics market and fleeing to a safe haven in the form of consoles. This, to me was a sort of conformation to what I feared all the time after the death of 3dfx. ATI however, had very serious plans with this IP company ArtX. They knew the basic ideas behind the Flipper chip were good, and could be used in PC graphics. They use this IP (and the men behind it) and create R300, the most powerful chip to ever come from ATI, and one of the most dominating products in 3D graphics in history. NVIDIA (who dominates at the time with NV25 (GeForce4 Titanium) has nothing to respond with and gets beaten by ATI.

All this above is a nice story about a company that buys another one and does the seemingly impossible, but what really interested me in all this is the parallelism is has with the CPU market. Here, on the one hand we have Intel, which dominated the CPU scene for as long as CPU’s existed and on the other we have the struggling AMD, who largely lives through the sale of second-class CPU’s. Compare this with the graphics situation in 2001, where NVIDIA was absolutely dominating the market with ATI struggling to keep up. This AMD actually releases a very nice core in itself with the K6-II (and eventually Sharptooth/K6-III(+)) with which it can keep up nicely but never surpass Intel. See ATI and it’s R200 against NVIDIA’s NV20 (GeForce3). Then AMD purchases a relatively unknown company (NexGen) and takes IP and employers from that. Again, see ATI who purchases ArtX. AMD uses these assets to create it’s K7 and blows Intel’s offering right off the map (sure, they didn’t surpass Intel on the initial K7 (Slot-A, Argon) offering, but would with their second (Socket-A, Thunderbird)) who still uses the P6 core which was already pretty much on it’s last legs. It’s new architecture, NetBurst (Pentium4), was nearly readying completion, but, on launch, seemed even more pathetic against K7 then the P6 core (in the form of Pentium!!!) was.

AMD fully exploits the power that is in the K7 core and builds upon that (Spitfire, Morgan, Palomino, Thoruoghbred) to become a very serious competitor to Intel. This is very much the same as ATI did with R300, which instantly dominated the whole landscape and is spread over the market fast with Radeon9500 (Pro), Radeon9700 (Pro). ATI also builds upon the core they have to get an even larger performance edge with R350 (Radeon9800 (Pro)). NVIDIA had nothing to put up against this, as their NV2x architecture was on it’s last legs too and their NV3x architecture was also readying completion (but not shipping, as we all know).

Intel, for the first time in it’s recent history, feels threatened by a competitor, but is quick to react and ramps up clockspeeds. They knew their NetBurst idea/architecture was good in itself, but did not have all the necessary means to really show it’s power (0.18 um, Socket-423, 256 kb Level-2 cache). These increases in clockspeed bring Intel closer to AMD but don’t really surpass it. Then Intel releases the Northwood core and gets on par again with AMD. But it never (well, not to this moment) dominates the market as it once did. It has, however, a performance edge on AMD (whose K7 architecture is getting very old indeed). AMD’s new architecture (the well known K8/Hammer) seems to again build upon the basic idea of K7 and is set to reclaim the performance edge from Intel. NVIDIA, who is caught by surprise (maybe not as much as we all thought, but still) has to act, and does. It announces NV30, but to numerous problems (though I don’t think design related are one of them) it never comes to a full release. This architecture (in the form of NV30 (GeForceFX)) would not nearly be enough to reclaim the throne. NVIDIA tries to save a bit of the situation in the form of driver updates (as opposed to ramping up clockspeeds with Intel). But it really takes a design change (256bit DDR-I bus) to get them back in the game (in the form of NV35 (GeForceFX 5900)). They however, do not dominate, but only get roughly on-par with ATI, much as Intel had done with Northwood on AMD.

My whole point to all of this is how much an acquisition of an IP company can mean for a large computer manufacturer. It has saved AMD (not to mention they are respected throughout the entire community) and has made ATI the top manufacturer in 3D graphics at this time. Of course, other examples can be thought of, such as 3dfx buying GigaPixel or even NVIDIA buying 3dfx. These, however were not successful and sometimes even led to the demise of the buyer. I think, that a lot of decisions NVIDIA has made in relation to NV30 were inspired by the 3dfx spirit. I don’t claim 3dfx caused the disaster that was NV30, but I think it didn’t help (just think of the hype that surrounded NV30, the likes of which we had never seen with any other NVIDIA product and compare this with the hype 3dfx created around their VSA-100 (in the form of Voodoo4/5).

The other thing I’d like to mention is how much the graphics market is reminiscent of the CPU market. Jen-Hsung Huang mentioned, not long ago, that the GPU is rapidly becoming a CPU in itself (if I’m correct he even stated to stand up to Intel in on the mid-long term). Now, with ATI mentioning to lengthen the life spans of their cores and NVIDIA not releasing a new GPU architecture every year, the whole market gets another step closer to being a true twin to CPU’s. I think that (with the exception of an incident (like NVIDIA buying IP and building a very powerful and dominating GPU as a result)) the whole graphics market will remind us a lot of the CPU market. With one manufacturer leading (not dominating) but the other never far behind.

Note; this is just my view of things, and I don't expect anyone to agree with me, I just wanted to vent...

Take care...

goofer456
06-02-03, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by pgn.inertia
The other thing I’d like to mention is how much the graphics market is reminiscent of the CPU market. Jen-Hsung Huang mentioned, not long ago, that the GPU is rapidly becoming a CPU in itself (if I’m correct he even stated to stand up to Intel in on the mid-long term). Now, with ATI mentioning to lengthen the life spans of their cores and NVIDIA not releasing a new GPU architecture every year, the whole market gets another step closer to being a true twin to CPU’s. I think that (with the exception of an incident (like NVIDIA buying IP and building a very powerful and dominating GPU as a result)) the whole graphics market will remind us a lot of the CPU market. With one manufacturer leading (not dominating) but the other never far behind.

Note; this is just my view of things, and I don't expect anyone to agree with me, I just wanted to vent...

Take care...

Wow.. I am impressed with your post. just the sheer length of it. Really interesting view:)

I do not agree 100% with the latest paragraph as I am of the opinion that Ati has a stronger position against Nvidia both product wise as financially than AMD has with Intel.

Other than that I agree with most of your (incredible long, but really good) post;)

pgn.inertia
06-02-03, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by goofer456
Wow.. I am impressed with your post. just the sheer length of it. Really interesting view:)

I do not agree 100% with the latest paragraph as I am of the opinion that Ati has a stronger position against Nvidia both product wise as financially than AMD has with Intel.

Other than that I agree with most of your (incredible long, but really good) post;)

I agree with you on the financial side, ATI has a stronger position to it's competitor that AMD has, but to include a financial side in this thread would surely make it impossible to read...;)

Thanks for reading/replying...

Darth Rancid
06-02-03, 09:48 AM
Well.. I hope some of the companies you count as "niche" manufacturers will manage to get back into the limelight... I would like to see Matrox back as the producer of the "best but frightfully overpriced" as they were with the G400MAX... and I'd like to see S3G get it right with DeltaChrome.... Four manufacturers seems about right to me. :)

And yes, I have more confidence in S3G than I have in SiS, Trident and Videologic/"Kyro"...

pgn.inertia
06-02-03, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by Darth Rancid
Well.. I hope some of the companies you count as "niche" manufacturers will manage to get back into the limelight... I would like to see Matrox back as the producer of the "best but frightfully overpriced" as they were with the G400MAX... and I'd like to see S3G get it right with DeltaChrome.... Four manufacturers seems about right to me. :)

And yes, I have more confidence in S3G than I have in SiS, Trident and Videologic/"Kyro"...

I'll keep that for a "The Graphics Market tomorrow" thread...;)

Dazz
06-02-03, 12:19 PM
How many hours did it take to to type that? or did you copy and paste :D

pgn.inertia
06-02-03, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by Dazz
How many hours did it take to to type that? or did you copy and paste :D

50 mins, plus some time to search for a few codenames (like the AMD Durons; Spitfire and Morgan)...

Why, do you think it's too long? ;)

goofer456
06-02-03, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by pgn.inertia
50 mins, plus some time to search for a few codenames (like the AMD Durons; Spitfire and Morgan)...

Why, do you think it's too long? ;)

[off topic]

Seems like your having a day off. 27 posts on your first day on this forum and one off them as long as 20 normal posts :D

Dazz
06-02-03, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by pgn.inertia
50 mins, plus some time to search for a few codenames (like the AMD Durons; Spitfire and Morgan)...

Why, do you think it's too long? ;) Too long, na. extreamly long, yeah :D

StealthHawk
06-02-03, 04:50 PM
I would argue that ATI always provided cards for the mainstream market, and really got into the enthusiast market with the Rage128. SiS, and Trident are not catering to niches, they produce mainstream chips. S3 is more of a niche product, with mainly notebook chips.

pgn.inertia
06-03-03, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by goofer456
[off topic]

Seems like your having a day off. 27 posts on your first day on this forum and one off them as long as 20 normal posts :D

Indeed I had, back to work now though...

pgn.inertia
06-03-03, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by StealthHawk
I would argue that ATI always provided cards for the mainstream market, and really got into the enthusiast market with the Rage128. SiS, and Trident are not catering to niches, they produce mainstream chips. S3 is more of a niche product, with mainly notebook chips.

At the time ATI indeed catered the mainstream market with Rage128 and Rage128 Pro later on, but SiS was definately catering the ultra low-end with SiS6326...

Trident was almost buried by then...

The point really was that, at the time, all we really had left were two companies battling it out...

StealthHawk
06-03-03, 05:46 AM
I took mainstream to be lowend, but did you mean midrange?

pgn.inertia
06-03-03, 06:07 AM
Originally posted by StealthHawk
I took mainstream to be lowend, but did you mean midrange?

Exactly! Sorry if I caused some confusion then...;)

Dazz
06-03-03, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by pgn.inertia
The point really was that, at the time, all we really had left were two companies battling it out... Not much has changed has it :D

pgn.inertia
06-03-03, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by Dazz
Not much has changed has it :D

Nope, and honestly as much as I would like to see it happen, I don't expect a third player in the field as well. As promising as projects like Xabre II (Silicon Integrated Systems), DeltaChrome (S3 Graphics) and PowerVR Series 5 (Imagination Tech) look, if they make it to market, they are destined to end up like Parhelia512 (Matrox).

Either they are released on time, have leading functionality and end up (just like Parhelia512) with very low clock speeds (thus hampering performance) or they are extremely late with good clockspeeds and miss the boat on functionality...

I'm not saying it's impossible to pull off, I just think people get excited way too fast when a third company 'suddenly' comes to the party after an absence of several years...

sbp
06-04-03, 01:17 AM
Good post pgn.inertia :thumbsup:

Dazz
06-04-03, 01:39 AM
Yeah they are too slow as their R&D team is too few they will never keep up.

pgn.inertia
06-04-03, 03:35 AM
Originally posted by Dazz
Yeah they are too slow as their R&D team is too few they will never keep up.

Well, what struck me last year was that a lot of companies suddenly came up with DirectX 8.x hardware. I mean, out-of-the-blue Matrox launches a DirectX 8 part in Parhelia512, Trident releases (well, announces...) their BladeXP DirectX 8 part and finally Silicon Integrated Systems comes up with Xabre (well, at least it's hardware DirectX 8 in the Pixel Shader)...

Some of these companies were from the pre-DirectX 7 era, but still release a nice part in terms of features. Like I said before, they were hampered by productional problems but were in essence nice products.

So, once again, it can be done, but it has to be a state-of-the-art core on a state-of-the-art process, and that just isn't gonna happen soon I believe...

Darth Rancid
06-04-03, 03:36 AM
Originally posted by pgn.inertia
Nope, and honestly as much as I would like to see it happen, I don't expect a third player in the field as well. As promising as projects like Xabre II (Silicon Integrated Systems), DeltaChrome (S3 Graphics) and PowerVR Series 5 (Imagination Tech) look, if they make it to market, they are destined to end up like Parhelia512 (Matrox).

Either they are released on time, have leading functionality and end up (just like Parhelia512) with very low clock speeds (thus hampering performance) or they are extremely late with good clockspeeds and miss the boat on functionality...

I'm not saying it's impossible to pull off, I just think people get excited way too fast when a third company 'suddenly' comes to the party after an absence of several years...

Unfortenately this is most likely true. I'd say DeltaChrome will have a nice feature set, but will not be clocked high enough to compete outside a laptop. If S3G is to be taken seriously, VIA needs to feed them lots and lots of money... so they can buy over a few engineering teams and other things you need...