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panzaman
06-03-03, 03:23 AM
....still happy to found with your money those dirty tactics? Has been apparent since day one that nVidia wanted to crush down 3DMark, they clearly want the industry not to trust 3dMark as a benchmark, and that just because 3DMArks expose nVidia chips weakness.

Where's the journalism???...this huge blunder is under the eyes of everybody and what this site and other sites do is just to report the news......this ain't journalism this is just a news report......why u guys (vampireuk,MikeC etc) don't post your comments on the front page instead to post them in the forums????....should I tell u why?

DSC
06-03-03, 03:36 AM
As evil as Nvidia is, you cannot have a monopoly of the graphics card market. ATI acts as a counter-balance to Nvidia and vice versa. Since ATI is doing extremely well, I don't see whats wrong with giving the market a choice. Yes, Nvidia is a cheater and a bully and every other expletive you can think of.

Notice that if it wasn't for the 8500LE, there would have never been a Ti4200(best value for money card in 2002). Remember, only recent ATI has turned itself around, otherwise, they'll still feed you with crappy hardware and crappy drivers that plagued their past.

Eventhough the 8500 was inferior to the GF4, people still buy it. The world is big enough for both companies, if you dislike Nvidia or ATI, you always have a CHOICE.

Personally, I won't touch any NV3x card, because imho they have too much controversy and problems associated with them. I'll wait and see for Nvidia to turn themselves around and get back on track with making good hardware and solid drivers.

panzaman
06-03-03, 03:39 AM
..so you are trying to say if you don't like nVidia buy ATI. Is easy to chicken out on the "I don't care about the company I care what is the best ratio power/money when I buy a card" but then you don't realize that your money are not used to fix a screwed up FX core but used instead to get drivers guys to program special clipping planes....

SurfMonkey
06-03-03, 04:17 AM
At the end of the day you buy what suits you best. You get what hardware you can afford with the features you want and the headroom to last another 18 months. Who cares who makes it as long as it works?

Richthofen
06-03-03, 04:31 AM
i will still buy Nvidia. Really i don't care about all that non game benchmark stuff.
I buy my graphics cards to play games and to be honest in that departmant Nvidia is back. Their cards always work. I have never experienced any big problems with their products.
So why shouldn't i buy their products?

Because of all that PR crap etc...?
Well they are a company and the first goal for a company is earn money no matter how.
I will definatly not buy a competitor product just because one company is more successfull in the marketing department or to help the competitor survive.
Right now i have a GF4TI.
My strategy is: Buy the refresh cards and i will continue to do that. That means i will buy a FX5900 (128 MB version), overclock it like my Ti4400 and then wait until NV45.
I never bought the first product line of a new generation and i will continue to do it that way.

pgn.inertia
06-03-03, 04:37 AM
Originally posted by SurfMonkey
At the end of the day you buy what suits you best. You get what hardware you can afford with the features you want and the headroom to last another 18 months. Who cares who makes it as long as it works?

I agree on you with that, but not for 100% As with a lot of specifically made products (like 3D cards, cars, and electronics in general) people do not buy rationally all the time.

With these products there is a certain emotion and feeling you get from buying one. Companies like NVIDIA and ATI spend a big portion of their promotional budget in to this. See NVIDIA and their "Graphics to the Nth degree" and "The way it's meant to be played"...

pgn.inertia
06-03-03, 04:40 AM
Originally posted by Richthofen

My strategy is: Buy the refresh cards and i will continue to do that. That means i will buy a FX5900 (128 MB version), overclock it like my Ti4400 and then wait until NV45.
I never bought the first product line of a new generation and i will continue to do it that way.

Indeed that is a wise route to take, mine exactly. The only thing that's not so nice is that you cannot play around with new 3D demos (like Chameleon on NV2x) right away...

My route:

NV5 --> NV15 --> NV25 --> NV35

StealthHawk
06-03-03, 05:43 AM
Originally posted by DSC
Eventhough the 8500 was inferior to the GF4, people still buy it. The world is big enough for both companies, if you dislike Nvidia or ATI, you always have a CHOICE.

Except that the r8500 is not inferior to the gf4 in all ways. Sure it is slower in 3d. But it had other advantages, mainly in 2d. And even in 3d, Truform did help IQ in games where it was properly supported, albeit that those games were few and far between.

nVidi0t
06-03-03, 07:09 AM
I will continue to buy only nVidia until their track record in my systems gets worse. They have been nothing but great since I bought my first TNT card. Cheaters or not, I really dont care, their cards make my games perfectly playable at high resolution with IQ maxed and I NEVER suffer any driver problems. Sure, I can get a 9800 Pro instead of an FX, and see an increase of 10 FPS when I max AA and AF, which I never do anyhow, and notice no visible difference in IQ unless I take some print screens and say "oh noes ATI IQ is higher with AA when I zoom in using photoshop."

From my experience with their products, nVidia own.

Hanners
06-03-03, 07:12 AM
Originally posted by panzaman
Where's the journalism???

Here's (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=9810) a nice bit of journalism for you. :D

marqmajere
06-03-03, 07:13 AM
Originally posted by nVidi0t
I will continue to buy only nVidia until their track record in my systems gets worse. They have been nothing but great since I bought my first TNT card. Cheaters or not, I really dont care, their cards make my games perfectly playable at high resolution with IQ maxed and I NEVER suffer any driver problems. Sure, I can get a 9800 Pro instead of an FX, and see an increase of 10 FPS when I max AA and AF, which I never do anyhow, and notice no visible difference in IQ unless I take some print screens and say "oh noes ATI IQ is higher with AA when I zoom in using photoshop."

From my experience with their products, nVidia own.

That's exactly what my thoughts are. You put it very nicely. :D

Gator
06-03-03, 07:14 AM
When a friend asks me what to buy right now, I still say GF4TI. It's a good solid card, and I continue to support it. It runs any of today's games fine.

My problem is I have NO IDEA what to purchase for my next card. I'm gonna get as much life as I can out of my current one, but when the day comes to upgrade again I simply don't know if I'd choose ATI or Nvida at this point? :(

This really all goes back to my terrible R8500 experience, it really was a living hell for me, Aquanox crash, UT image tearing, UT2k3 studdering... it put a bad taste in my mouth, and when I sold it and switched to TI4400 instead it was like a god-sent when everything magically worked correctly with no image tearing, no crashing, etc. I didn't even bother reformating switching from R8500 to TI4400, it really was just that easy. But strangly, the previous Radeon 64ddr Vivo and Rage128 cards I had never really gave me a hard time.

So in short, no idea who to support next time :(

nVidi0t
06-03-03, 07:18 AM
Originally posted by Gator
When a friend asks me what to buy right now, I still say GF4TI. It's a good solid card, and I continue to support it. It runs any of today's games fine.

My problem is I have NO IDEA what to purchase for my next card. I'm gonna get as much life as I can out of my current one, but when the day comes to upgrade again I simply don't know if I'd choose ATI or Nvida at this point? :(

This really all goes back to my terrible R8500 experience, it really was a living hell for me, Aquanox crash, UT image tearing, UT2k3 studdering... it put a bad taste in my mouth, and when I sold it and switched to TI4400 instead it was like a god-sent when everything magically worked correctly with no image tearing, no crashing, etc. I didn't even bother reformating switching from R8500 to TI4400, it really was just that easy. But strangly, the previous Radeon 64ddr Vivo and Rage128 cards I had never really gave me a hard time.

So in short, no idea who to support next time :(

I use this motto when choosing a brand. If it aint broke, dont fix it.

vampireuk
06-03-03, 07:29 AM
I will buy whatever is worth my money, if NVIDIA have the best product then I will buy NVIDIA, if ATI have the best I will buy ATI.

I think NVIDIA kind of got jumpy when ATI overtook them in the performance lead and kind of lost their mind:eek:

nVidi0t
06-03-03, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by vampireuk
I will buy whatever is worth my money, if NVIDIA have the best product then I will buy NVIDIA, if ATI have the best I will buy ATI.

I think NVIDIA kind of got jumpy when ATI overtook them in the performance lead and kind of lost their mind:eek:

I think the problems with the FX range were a result of both jumpiness and lack of resources because of the diversification they were going through.

Hanners
06-03-03, 07:36 AM
Originally posted by nVidi0t
I think the problems with the FX range were a result of both jumpiness and lack of resources because of the diversification they were going through.

I wouldn't put it down to lack of resources, I think what nVidia came up with was a great concept on paper (and let's face it, the ideas are great) but didn't really work how they wanted it to in practice - I think they simply overshot what was reasonably possible with current manufacturing technology, as well as making a couple of serious errors of judgement along the way (using a 128-bit bus for example).

nVidi0t
06-03-03, 07:44 AM
Originally posted by Hanners
I wouldn't put it down to lack of resources, I think what nVidia came up with was a great concept on paper (and let's face it, the ideas are great) but didn't really work how they wanted it to in practice - I think they simply overshot what was reasonably possible with current manufacturing technology, as well as making a couple of serious errors of judgement along the way (using a 128-bit bus for example).

It was a great concept. Technically the 5800 Ultra is a behemoth of a graphics board, but I just dont see how they managed to overlook the memory bus issue, or the heat issue.

Maybe it would have been a better decision to implement the 256-bit bus and work on the cooling solution on the 5800 Ultra board. But who knows what kind of cooling solution it would take to get rid of the FlowFX. Definately not an affordable one.

vandersl
06-03-03, 07:58 AM
I'm a little surprised at the continued support for NVidia, even though this is an NVidia board.

For me, the decision is easy - not only is ATI a 'cleaner' company ATM, they also have the best hardware. So I'll buy from them.

With NVidia's recent antics, it would take a decided performance advantage for me to even consider changing back to NVidia (I've owned two NVidia cards prior to my 9700P).

And as a final comment - I've had far fewer problems with the 9700P than the TNT2 and 4200 I've had previously.

vampireuk
06-03-03, 07:58 AM
I think the problems with the FX range were a result of both jumpiness and lack of resources because of the diversification they were going through

Agreed, unfortunatly after the problems with the FX range at the start they managed to bury themselves even further with the driver fiasco. They went from one "quixk fix" to another and just went too damn far:(

creedamd
06-03-03, 08:54 AM
I don't care which company the card is made from. Right now Nvidia is losing ground to Ati, I will buy the next card that brings to the video card market what the 9700pro did. I believe that the 9700 pro is a landmark in graphics. It stunned nvidia and if nvidia can come out with it's own "9700 pro" then I will buy it. I don't think that is going to happen soon though, nvidia is spending to much resources on cheating for the crown than trying to earn it like Ati did.

I would like for the nvidiots to have a day to rejoice WITH NO EXCEPTIONS. Nvidia is having a hard time delivering for the fans.

Dazz
06-03-03, 09:19 AM
I am looking to buy a new card in a month or so time and an't sure what to pickup? A Sapphire Radeon 9700Pro or a MSI GeForceFX 5800. Currently all i care about is IQ aka AF & speed also o/cing potential, i don't really care about FSAA as i would rather use a higher rez and have 3 spare PCI slots so i don't care if the card is big also i have nothing blocking the card due to size *wipes forehead*.

creedamd
06-03-03, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by Dazz
I am looking to buy a new card in a month or so time and an't sure what to pickup? A Sapphire Radeon 9700Pro or a MSI GeForceFX 5800. Currently all i care about is IQ aka AF & speed also o/cing potential, i don't really care about FSAA as i would rather use a higher rez and have 3 spare PCI slots so i don't care if the card is big also i have nothing blocking the card due to size *wipes forehead*.

If you are indeed asking the question, 9700pro for sure. Even the 5800ultra couldn't compete with cheating drivers.

Solomon
06-03-03, 09:31 AM
Personally for me, this shows that something is wrong with the Detonator drivers. Now that nVidia basically can do what they want with their drivers upon benchmarks, what's not to stop them for causing problems now in games in the future? It's sort of ironic. nVidia used to be known for great drivers. Now that they can bully Futuremark into stating that the drivers don't cheat. What will stop them from doing that sort of thing to another company or what not?

Since the drivers is what drives the hardware, I think we have to start looking at more of a driver angle to decide the purchasing of a piece of hardware. The 5900 Ultra is a great product, but if the drivers are allowed to get away with clip plane in the 3DMark03, it kinda of worries me that it could happen in games down the road. I would have to get a 9800 Pro for the fact it's out now and the drivers seem to be solid.

Until nVidia otherwise shows me that with some new releases, I would be hesitant to recommend any FX products. (Remind you the GeForce 4 Ti is still a great purchase).

Regards,
D. Solomon Jr.
*********.com

Fusion
06-03-03, 09:37 AM
Well, speaking from someone who now owns both, I can safely say that they are both great cards.
And I just don't see what this has to do with the Company's PR machine ?
If they make good hardware (And they do), your games run great, then I just don't see a problem at all.

The 9700 Pro is a great card, but I'm getting a lot of warm boot issues whereby the PC goes into standby and won't boot at all. A couple of resets and it kicks back in, not a problem but it never happened with Nvidia cards.
Then there's icon corruption with a lot off dll and image icons like .gif, .jpg, .bmp. This happens in both WinME and WinXP using cat 3.4. And this is on fresh installs from both OS'

IQ on the desktop is identical. Both my PCs are identical including monitor, with the exception that I'm using Nvidia's soundstorm on one of my NForce2 boards. But the MSI Geforce4 Ti4600 is absolutely identical to my Sapphire atlantis 9700 Pro. With one exception and that I really miss digital vibrance.

Games are rock solid on the 9700, no problems yet, and no crashes. Although I get the stuttering effect in the GTA games, I'm seeing on the Rage forums.

The AA is better, not by miles (compared to 4xS), but much better than Nvidia's normal 4x, and 2x. Although I'd say the 4xS mode on my GF4 is slightly sharper than 4x on the radeon.

It was nice to finally see the mother nature test in 3dmark2003, but I wasn't really bothered about the score, even though it was 3x that of my GF4.

At the end of the day, it's what YOU are happy with. NOT what some forum member is happy to tell you.

Dazz
06-03-03, 09:43 AM
Hmm so what's holding me back in C&C Generals? Also i don't know what it is but in some games, like Medal of honour i get screen tearing, wasn't happening with my Geforce 2 GTS.