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Ancient76
03-15-09, 12:02 PM
I am a developer myself and a game developer at that. I cannot begin to tell you how much it #%***% me off to see the entire industry brainwashing its customers. It's all about the damn money. This whole "everyone is doing it" argument is @%%%%$+%. If everyone was killing babies should you do it too? That is the most cliche and sorry excuse, along with "Wah we're a small company and need your money to support upcoming titles.... even though this one is horse dung."

We didn't have this whole 'release the game and patch the damn thing 5 times @@*!' in the 80s. Now you even have to patch console games. In the near future you will be hard pressed to find games with demos to try before you buy, as well. It's a business that is now controlled by lazy coorperate slave drivers and crooked marketing. That never used to be the way things went down. You used to install software and have confidence it was tested and polished. It might have a bug or two, but nothing even close to the fecal matter they put on the shelves today. I'll give you systems are larger and more complex now. However, as a developer, I see bugs all the time and get told, "Well, thats not really a problem right now." Only to hear the customer complain on the very thing I pointed out.

The whole industry is going to @@*!. It's all because of greed. I haven't played a title in 1 1/2 years that I thought was great. Although I've probably counted 100 in the last year that were "The best game ever" "guarenteed to be a smash "highly addictive", etc. on the hype machine. Greed, marketing, and impossible deadlines rule the industry. Who do you have to thank? Big companies that are monopolizing the industry and forcing the developers to turn thier dreams into unethical piles of poopy doopy. I've even been told to go home, make 15 accounts and hype up my own product, by one publisher, one I didn't even believe in. "If you want to keep your job, you'll do it."

I really miss the days when developers were free to do it for the love of the game. Now management forces releases early, they postpone bug fixes, or completely ignore bugs. I've almost been canned before for working on what I considered an imperative bug without "clearing" the time I spent with my producer. I get told, "It's not in the budget." My response is "So, you'd rather spend 6 months tracking this thing down than 1 week taking care of it right now"? They made it clear they would.

You see, after they hype things up and take your money, the big wigs don't care anymore. They want to minimze the complaining to a tolerable level as fast as possible, rather than let you finish your vision, and switch you to the team that is working on the next cash cow.

Anway, I hope they do straighten ETW out, but don't you dare give me that "Everyone is doing it, that is software developement @@*!", because it isn't. It is software management.

If I had enough to hire my own staff I probably wouldn't be rolling in money, but I can guarentee you I wouldn't have my name on anything I would be ashamed of.

This is post from the Empire: Total War forum about the current situation in gaming industry.

Big companies that are monopolizing the industry and forcing the developers to turn thier dreams into unethical piles of poopy doopy. I've even been told to go home, make 15 accounts and hype up my own product, by one publisher, one I didn't even believe in. "If you want to keep your job, you'll do it."

This part is interesting. And this is the biggest problem today.

qube
03-15-09, 12:13 PM
i say one word DNF

NarcissistZero
03-15-09, 01:03 PM
Empire Total War is buggy? Mine runs and plays perfectly.

Anyway, of course it's about the money, gaming is a business just like anything else in capitalist society. Mainstream movies have been purified, sanitized and dumbed down for years now... getting those mainstream dollars is the only way to justify the massive budgets these huge productions have. That doesn't mean these games can't be great or interesting though, a lot of mainstream stuff still manages to be awesome, despite being built by commitee.

What I find interesting is how smaller budget games are almost completely ignored. While in movies you have the Oscars and many other ways to celebrate smaller, more meaningful and deep films, in games the smaller budget or indie titles are treated almost as diseased vermin to be ignored. When people complain "I want a real sim" after playing HAWX, or "I want a real RPG" after playing Fallout 3, it's almost as if they don't realize there are products doing exactly what they want coming out right now, they just aren't as hyped and pimped out in the gaming media. Hinterland? Eschalon? Mount and Blade? Blackhawk? iracing.com? These things are ignored.

Noriega
03-15-09, 01:26 PM
Let's all buy consoles play games that reviews are 10/10 and everybody says it's "ground breaking game", pay for Live, pay for DLC, pay for changing your Gamer Tag, pay more for games cause MS, Nintendo or Sony needs their share too! Come on guys it's trendy! It is trendy nova days to be *****ed in the ass and be told that this is the way it should look like.

PS read something about video game industry crash in 80's. I think gaming should be better without MS, Sony and Nintendo monopoly.

bob saget
03-15-09, 01:29 PM
Wanting to make money is so 1990s......(lee63)

JasonPC
03-15-09, 02:08 PM
E:TW definitely has bugs but geez people need to calm down over it. It's a very big game and I've never seen a total war game without bugs before so why are people just starting to complain. Honestly I think the major source of some of the problems is that nvidia has yet to release a set of drivers that are optimized for the game. It seems nvidia has been very bad about drivers lately with evga releasing like 6 patches to add SLI support... Sounds like ATI cards run it much better for the most part and that's kind of sad when ATI drivers are superior in a game.

Yaboze
03-15-09, 07:37 PM
I love this talk of consoles and the 80's.

Computers in the 80's where 8-bit, single profile for many years, the PC was 16-bit eventually, but most of that stuff wasn't that complex and was closed. Even consoles were 8-bit, like the NES. Much simpler to code on. The original Atari 2600 games had like 1 programmer per game and it took them a few months. Now games take teams of 30-100+ and millions of dollars and years to make. The expectation is set so high, that's why. Games went from 320x200, flat, with sprites and basic audio, to HD resolutions, film scored soundtracks, digital audio and 3D modeled game worlds.

I agree there are a lot of crap games but there were crap games in the 80's and 90's, too.

The PC being the only real gaming platform other than consoles could potentially have millions of combinations of hardware, drivers and OS's. You just gotta hope your code doesn't conflict with any combination of that stuff.

Console games are patched because they are similar to PC's and have good storage for this kind of stuff. They are always adding stuff like Multiplayer maps and additional free and paid content.

NarcissistZero
03-15-09, 07:56 PM
Console games are patched because they are similar to PC's and have good storage for this kind of stuff. They are always adding stuff like Multiplayer maps and additional free and paid content.

Console games are patched for stupid stuff like glitches and bugs all the time... it's not just free content. As much as they are closed systems, devs still seem to have issues creating a bug-free experience on them.

Noriega
03-15-09, 08:02 PM
@Yaboze you totally missed the point of this... read WHY the video games market crashed.

Greg
03-15-09, 09:49 PM
"The video game industry takes creative and talented people then crushes and destroys them."

The other week, I met up with one of my old employers, an ex CEO and owner of a video game company and he made that statement.

Case in point... In the late 90s I had the privilege of working with an incredibly talented artist. He joined us from a large company he'd been working with for some years. I saw his folio and it was most impressive. This guy was ILM material. So what did we hire him to do? Spend 12 months converting high polygon models to low polygon models for the Sega Saturn and PC versions of the game. No surprise he resigned after that challenging and fulfilling work. Sadly he no longer even works in games.

I could tell stories for hours of the utter insanity of the game industry. Sure there are a handful of success stories, independent owned or run companies that are profitable and successful, having both vision and money, but these are exceptions.

If you as a gamer think that most games should not even exist, you are correct. There is not a single issue that causes the industry woes. Certainly greed may be a root cause, but that is just human nature, permeating and putrefying most industries.

arioch21
03-15-09, 10:16 PM
game runs ok for me, at least they "are" patching it and they said another patch coming early this week.

t3hl33td4rg0n
03-16-09, 01:04 AM
The pricetag of most games doesn't help either. Nor does certain devs/pubs who don't fix their games. Two crappy games I bought recently, Rise of the Argonauts and FarCry 2, are still unplayable. The former, because its an eyesore and you cant customize your controls at all (complete bull****). The latter, because after patching the game, it locks up when loading maps.

I remember back in the day when games used to be like $20-30, and back even further when you could buy DOS games for $5-10.

Example, look at Ubisoft, most of their titles in the past few years still have major problems that have gone unfixed... Just look at SCDA and R6V.

NarcissistZero
03-16-09, 02:06 AM
I remember back in the day when games used to be like $20-30, and back even further when you could buy DOS games for $5-10.

When were AAA titles ever $20-30 at release? I remember when games cost much MORE than they do now.

CaptNKILL
03-16-09, 05:42 AM
When were AAA titles ever $20-30 at release? I remember when games cost much MORE than they do now.

I have to agree here.

I remember hearing about how irritated by Dad was when he bought Freeway for the Atari 2600 for $50 back in the early 80s because everyone wanted it.

You know, that Frogger-like game without the water? :p

http://www.thelogbook.com/phosphor/atari26/img/freeway.jpg

That was over 25 years ago. $50 was a hell of a lot more money then.

I also remember the $299 price sticker on the box for our old Colecovision.

Or, the ripoff software store we had here in town that sold Nascar Racing 2 for $85 when the game was 3 years old.

Buio
03-16-09, 05:42 AM
I really miss the days when developers were free to do it for the love of the game.

The guy posting that doesn't know how to look. There are still smaller games made today for the love of the game, with great gameplay and yet low budget. Basically his problem is that he wants a Hollywood big budget movie to be made as a independent film for his own enjoyment.

CaptNKILL
03-16-09, 05:47 AM
The guy posting that doesn't know how to look. There are still smaller games made today for the love of the game, with great gameplay and yet low budget. Basically his problem is that he wants a Hollywood big budget movie to be made as a independent film for his own enjoyment.
Aquaria is a perfect example of a well crafted independent game.

They may not even come close to the visual quality of AAA titles but extremely well made indy games do exist and they're just getting easier and cheaper to develop and distribute as time goes on.

nutcrackr
03-16-09, 07:19 AM
see valve.

they may take an extra year to finish a game, but in the end does anybody think it isn't worth it?

TheANIMAL
03-16-09, 08:08 AM
Ahhh, but thats valve, they can do no wrong.



Well, almost.

|MaguS|
03-16-09, 08:30 AM
No developer ever made a game because they love doing it... they all have intentions to make it big and make money. Yes when they start off they take more care to procude a better product because they have limited funds and if that single title doesn't do well then there wont be a second.

Why do you think the first Final Fantasy was such a break through in story and gameplay... because it could have been the companies Final game...

The problem with the industry right now is that development costs are so high that mass market games are the only thing publishers trust. If they don't believe a game will sell 1 million+ within the first month they are scared to touch it. Take THQ for instance, they had some good games release last year but they announced lower profits this quarter. Heck EA had a great end of year with Dead Space and Mirrors Edge yet posted lower profits then expected...

Ancient76
03-16-09, 09:10 AM
The biggest problem with gaming industry is EA and companies who copy them. And one more si that today PC is secondary platform.

BTW, PC developing is cheaper and less demanding.

Gaco
03-16-09, 09:43 AM
No developer ever made a game because they love doing it...
How would you know that? I've never heard such bull**** statement in my life..

|MaguS|
03-16-09, 09:46 AM
How would you know that? I've never heard such bull**** statement in my life..

Because game development isn't fun... It takes alot of hardwork and time to make a solid game. Im sure they all feel a sense of accomplishment but none are all giddy with smiles on their faces while they work 50+ hour weeks thinking about how happy they will make gamers.

I guess I should rephrase it since someone can love their job yet not "love" it as lets say an artist or actor...

Greg
03-16-09, 10:20 AM
There is no need for conflict between motivations of love of games and making money from them, in fact it is the passion and dedication that creates great sell-able products. There is certainly discipline involved to meet customers needs and keep production efficient.

What we're talking about here is the situation where the people in authority, which is individuals employed by both the publisher and developer, abuse their position, commanding foolish ventures and making bad decisions.

The fact that ~85% of games do not recover their cost and >90% of games started are either canceled or fail in the market place shows this industry is run by incompetent fools. The average developer lasts <4.5years before disillusionment. Some of these people are worth their weight in gold but after a few years of soul destroying abuse, leave to find a real job.

Sure there are indie developers around and every year one or two get lucky, noticed or achieve something impressive, but games have been around for a while now and skilled developers have families to feed. Starting an independent studio with a group of friends is so much easier if you don't have kids to care for and heavy rent/mortgage to pay. The young kids who have the ability to go independent will make all the usual mistakes and lack the experience to efficiently run high quality productions.

There are solutions to this problem, the most obvious is that we need government to help create a business environment where investors can take big risks on interactive media and be rewarded for doing so. We need to encourage independent studios because that's where innovation comes from. Otherwise good luck to you with next years Sports, Movie Licenses and Sequels... Last yEArs games in HD, hurray!

Ancient76
03-16-09, 11:31 AM
Because game development isn't fun... It takes alot of hardwork and time to make a solid game. Im sure they all feel a sense of accomplishment but none are all giddy with smiles on their faces while they work 50+ hour weeks thinking about how happy they will make gamers.

I guess I should rephrase it since someone can love their job yet not "love" it as lets say an artist or actor...

You are so wrong.

NarcissistZero
03-16-09, 03:50 PM
BTW, PC developing is cheaper and less demanding.

That's not what these companies will tell you.