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TheTaz
06-08-03, 08:57 PM
/rant

Dunno about you guys, but I'm getting pretty sick of the "Marketing Tricks" that have surrounded the AMD and Intel Price War BS.

I've owned Intels all the way up through the P3 line, then finally switched to AMD Athlon XP's.

Why? Two Reasons. The P4 vs. the P3 and AMD, clock for clock sucks... And You got more bang for your buck with AMD, even with their "****ed up" model numbering scheme.

That was true, until now. Intel has finally moved to hyperthreading and added 800MHz FSB to get the P4 to work worth a sh!t and a P4-C 2.8GHz beats an Athlon XP3200+ Barton without overclocking, and is a good $160 cheaper.

More bang for the buck (without overclocking)... I'm not loyal to either company. So I'm prolly gonna switch back to Intel.

Congrats to Intel for finally making a P4 worth a sh!t. :D

So why am I ranting?

Let's look at the technology a little...

Current P4:
.13u (About a year after P4's came out)
512k L2 Cache (Same time)
Hyperthreading (Recent)
800MHz Core (Quad Pumped 200MHz) (Recent)

Current AthlonXP:
.13u (Recent)
512k L2 Cache (Recent)
Hyperthreading (About a year and a half ago... or am I thinking Hypertransport??? ...confused)
400MHz Core (2x 200MHz) (Recent)

Intel was first to have 512k L2 Cache and .13u.
AMD was first to have Hyperthreading (Or Hypertransport... I may be off on this).

AMD has superior Floating Point Engineering ,which is why even with 800MHz Bandwidth, clock for clock the Intel can't touch an AMD, which is sad. BUT... AMD can't claim that their piddly 2.2Ghz XP 3200+ is equivelent to a 3.2 GHz P4 anymore either... It's more like a 2500+ for a P4-C comparison. And the Prices no longer reflect AMD as being the "best bang for the buck, without overclocking".

Why does this piss me off?
Just switch back to Intel, right?

It's getting to be a pain in the @ss to figure out what is the better bang for the buck! :p LOL!

What they NEED to do:

Intel needs to get off it's @ss an put out a core that competes closer to AMD clock for clock. (P5 maybe?)

AMD needs to get rid of that ****ed up "model number scheme" and boost the core to 800MHz and put in Hyperthreading, if I was off about that. (in other words all major features of the CPU's ***should match***).

*Then* they BOTH need to set the prices accordingly.

The Marketing BS is getting ridiculous!

/rant off

Taz

The Baron
06-08-03, 09:26 PM
This post is wrong in so many ways.

OK.

Let's start.

Hyperthreading (About a year and a half ago... or am I thinking Hypertransport??? ...confused)
No no no no no. HyperThreading is the P4 pseudo-SMP stuff. HyperTransport is a new thing on Athlon64 boards, but not AthlonXP boards.

That was true, until now. Intel has finally moved to hyperthreading and added 800MHz FSB to get the P4 to work worth a sh!t and a P4-C 2.8GHz beats an Athlon XP3200+ Barton without overclocking, and is a good $160 cheaper.
Buy a Barton 3000+. IIRC, it was at least as fast as the 2.2Ghz in most things and faster in some others. Probably overclocked better, too. Then again, a buddy of mine overclocked his 2.6C to 3.5Ghz without any sort of exotic cooling (he's got the El Gigante Zalman cooler on it, but it sounds like it's not necessary).

(in other words all major features of the CPU's ***should match***).
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD NO. Imagine, if you would, if ATI and NVIDIA cards were for all intents and purposes EXACTLY the same with the only difference being price. Guess what--that's not competition. AMD is going one way with x86-64 (I think it's the right way), and Intel is going in another direction by ignoring x86-64 and running with HyperThreading (I also think that's the right way and can't wait until x86-64 procs with HT-style tech comes out).

What differentiates the two now (and what most people don't realize) are the motherboards. The AMD boards are MUCH better for people looking for a way to remove most of their PCI cards (nForce 2 in particular), but Chaintech has just struck back with a Canterwood board with all of the features of the NF2 and sound using the same chipset as the consumer M-Audio card (I salivate for that board like you cannot imagine--sure, it's $270, but it's fecking amazing).

The big thing that seems to be beyond you right now is that AMD is slowly beginning to end the AthlonXP line in favor of Athlon64. If they could release an AthlonXP 4000+ right now that would decimate anything of Intel's, they probably wouldn't. x86-64 should give a hefty performance boost, and while I probably won't have one for a while, I'm looking for to it.

TheTaz
06-08-03, 09:37 PM
I'll just reply to one section:

Originally posted by The Baron
What differentiates the two now (and what most people don't realize) are the motherboards. The AMD boards are MUCH better for people looking for a way to remove most of their PCI cards (nForce 2 in particular), but Chaintech has just struck back with a Canterwood board with all of the features of the NF2 and sound using the same chipset as the consumer M-Audio card (I salivate for that board like you cannot imagine--sure, it's $270, but it's fecking amazing).


Uhm... the new i865PE motherboards do the same. Near i875 performance... all the Bells and whistles of nForce 1 and 2. (USB 2.0, sata, firewire, audio, and lan)

The Abit Version$108.00 on Gogglegear.com
And the Asus version is $144.00 on Mwave.com

I have an nForce 1 right now. and I *admit* I'm dissapointed with my upgrade path... can't upgrade to a tbred or barton without buying a new fricken motherboard.

As for focusing on the Opteron... I ain't payin $800 for a fricken 1.8 GHz processor... even if it's slightly faster than an XP 3200+.

Especially with no 64-bit Winblows available yet.

/shrug

EDIT: Oh... and I thought that Hypertransport was some sort of CPU to Chipset communication technology that nVidia put in the nForce 1 and 2 that boosted performance.

StealthHawk
06-09-03, 01:39 AM
Yeah, HyperTransport is a bus that AMD developed. It is used to link the northbridge and southbridge in nforce motherboards. AMD will use HyperTransport in Hammer for its integrated memory controller. So AthlonXPs themsevles do not use HyperTransport.

P.S. Please don't circumvent the swear filter when using words like "f*ck." Thanks.

nVidi0t
06-09-03, 04:50 AM
I went over to AMD and then realized that I was spending more time trying to fix problems with my VIA chipset than actually playing games and using it.

Since Intel have started pulling ahead I jumped platforms and I can safely say that an Intel CPU coupled with an Intel chipset board is just flawless.

Intel innovate and AMD follow up, that's how it's always worked. And now with Centrino and Canterwood, Intel are winning across all fronts, and the Athlon 64 doesn't look to regain the performance crown either. Sure, it's faster clock for clock, but can they get the clock speeds they need from the Athlon 64 to match up with the Intel 3.2-4Ghz models coming before the end of the year?

GL AMD.

StealthHawk
06-09-03, 05:08 AM
Originally posted by nVidi0t
I went over to AMD and then realized that I was spending more time trying to fix problems with my VIA chipset than actually playing games and using it.

Why didn't you use an nforce platform?!

nVidi0t
06-09-03, 05:15 AM
Originally posted by StealthHawk
Why didn't you use an nforce platform?!

They weren't available around my parts at the time, computer hardware stores are just spammed with VIA boards.

I did try to get an ASUS A7N8X but lack of availability and the urgency for a new motherboard at the time made me jump ship to Intel.

It's good to finally see a solid top performing chipset for AMD though.

SnakeEyes
06-09-03, 07:51 AM
Things are looking up for both product lines right now. For best overall performance without spending a fortune, Intel is now very interesting again (in fact, enough that I'm actually considering going back, for a 2.6GHz P4 800MHz hyperthreading model, after having gone AMD for my last 3 processors).

For best bang-for-the-buck, AMD is still king, and if the news is right, likely will be until at least October, since Intel has announced no more price cuts until then. At this time, the 2500+ (which btw, is turning out to be an overclocking champ for the latest batches) for $80 is a really attractive buy for those with nF2 motherboards.

Sounds like a win-win situation for people wanting to buy from either of the two CPU trendsetters right now. :)

SavagePaladin
06-09-03, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by nVidi0t

Intel innovate and AMD follow up, that's how it's always worked. And now with Centrino and Canterwood, Intel are winning across all fronts, and the Athlon 64 doesn't look to regain the performance crown either. Sure, it's faster clock for clock, but can they get the clock speeds they need from the Athlon 64 to match up with the Intel 3.2-4Ghz models coming before the end of the year?

GL AMD.
Well, 3dnow! led to SSE stuff

Hypertransport is AMD

Opteron/Athlon 64 is a bigger change than I've EVER seen come out of Intel (well, within the last several (5+) years.)

Intel has the thing of having a crapload more money to throw at everything

AMD gets more patents on a yearly basis, i'm told

So I don't think Intel really 'innovates' anymore. They rely on their clout to backstab people into underplaying opponents products and spend their money wildly.
Or they innovate in an area people use over AMDs solutions because more people have Intel.
They *usually* have well working chipsets, but multimedia they can't do worth crap...so I'd rather have an nforce2.
I love the dolby digital audio on this thing (nforce1.)

TheTaz
06-09-03, 10:02 AM
Well.... I'm not gonna upgrade for a while, yet. (Prolly fall)

So there's still time for price cuts and new chips.

My major hang up is... I'm afraid if I buy an nForce 2, which is really what I want to do... that their only gonna make a few 400MHz core Bartons... then nothing but Opterons... which would leave me stuck buying another motherboard and really piss me off, after this narrow nForce 1 upgrade path.

Taz

The Baron
06-09-03, 10:37 AM
Not all audio is created equal. The Chaintech board has an audio chip at least as good as the NF2 Soundstorm audio, unlike the Springdale boards which have the uber-cheap integrated stuff.

And yes, the AthlonXP path is dying. If you want to keep your mobo, buy an Intel. Then again, when Prestonia (I think--memory does not serve, little sleep) is released, you'll have to get a new Intel board.

Heh. At least you won't with Athlon64 since the memory controller is integrated into the CPU..

TheTaz
06-09-03, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by The Baron
Not all audio is created equal. The Chaintech board has an audio chip at least as good as the NF2 Soundstorm audio, unlike the Springdale boards which have the uber-cheap integrated stuff.

Well I agree there. I Love the fact that my nForce 1 only takes up 3% CPU with 32 voices going.

As for the quality... It's nice... but not entirely necessary since I still only run 2 speakers and a woofer.

If the el Cheapo integrated stuff doesn't rob the CPU 25% like a sound card... then I'd be satisfied.

Originally posted by The Baron
And yes, the AthlonXP path is dying. If you want to keep your mobo, buy an Intel. Then again, when Prestonia (I think--memory does not serve, little sleep) is released, you'll have to get a new Intel board.

And this is where I have a problem with AMD. We all know it took years for people to convert from 16-bit OS and Apps to 32-bit. The 64-bit version of Winblows isn't even out yet... The processor costs double, The motherboards are prolly spendy (Haven't looked those up)... and there won't be 64-Bit Winblows apps for quite some time.

Now granted, The Opteron runs 32-Bit Apps faster... but I still don't think it's worth $800.

My point is... 32-Bit XP line still has life, and I'm worried AMD will choke it off too soon, and screw me again on my upgrade path.

Will have to look up what that Prestonia is. ;)

Originally posted by The Baron
Heh. At least you won't with Athlon64 since the memory controller is integrated into the CPU..

Well that's a cool feature that I didn't know about. :)

SavagePaladin
06-09-03, 02:04 PM
Opteron prices don't really matter, as Opteron has a significasnt chip complexity difference with the Athlon 64, and is meant for workstation and server stuff.

Plus it just came out.

As to the 64 bit app comment, both UT2004 and Half-Life 2 should have 64 bit clients. Dunno bout servers, but it'd be kinda loopy to have one and not the other.

The Baron
06-09-03, 03:07 PM
I'm guessing Athlon64s will be about as much as higher-end AthlonXPs at launch. Now, x86-64 will run 32-bit apps at the same speed (or faster--look at UT2k3).

64-bit Windows will be out by A64 launch, and it will probably increase the speed of 32-bit apps significantly through 64-bit drivers (SuSE got a significant speed increase from x86-64, but that is a server OS, after all--I'd still expect Windows to get some...).

Athlon64 is really a good thing, believe it or not. It supports 32-bit apps just dandily, but it also runs 64-bit apps when they come out.

And, in case you didn't know, Athlon64 =/= Opteron. Opteron is out but is a server-oriented CPU, like Xeon. So, if you call Athlon64 a bad deal because it costs $800, that's like saying P4s are bad because Xeons are expensive. Athlon64 isn't out yet and won't be until September. And they will be a LOT cheaper because they won't have the huge amounts of cache.

SavagePaladin
06-09-03, 03:12 PM
I actually don't think the AMD64 Windows will be out by the launch...
I follow AMD, and thats what I've gathered. Should be this year I think, though.

The Baron
06-09-03, 03:46 PM
My boy at Winbeta tells me different. ;)

nVidi0t
06-09-03, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by SavagePaladin
Well, 3dnow! led to SSE stuff

Hypertransport is AMD

Opteron/Athlon 64 is a bigger change than I've EVER seen come out of Intel (well, within the last several (5+) years.)

Intel has the thing of having a crapload more money to throw at everything

AMD gets more patents on a yearly basis, i'm told

So I don't think Intel really 'innovates' anymore. They rely on their clout to backstab people into underplaying opponents products and spend their money wildly.
Or they innovate in an area people use over AMDs solutions because more people have Intel.
They *usually* have well working chipsets, but multimedia they can't do worth crap...so I'd rather have an nforce2.
I love the dolby digital audio on this thing (nforce1.)

3dnow! was never really as beneficial as it could have been. AMD have always had a hard time trying to get software developers to optimize software to use the 3dnow! instructions. AMD have basically ceased supporting 3dnow and have decided to focus on Intel's multimedia extensions.

Intel develop MMX, AMD adopt MMX.
Intel develop SSE, AMD adopt SSE.
Intel develop mobile Celeron CPUs, AMD later bring in mobile K6 CPU's.
Intel develop mobile Pentium III CPU's, AMD later bring in mobile Duron CPU's.
Intel develop Speedstep technology, AMD introduce Powernow! technology over a year later.
Intel develop SSE2, AMD to adopt SSE2 in the Athlon 64.
Intel move to 512kb L2 cache as their CPU standard, AMD release Barton core a year later.

Thats the pattern I established to say that Intel innovate.

The Baron
06-09-03, 04:03 PM
SSE was a extended version of 3DNow, you know.

SavagePaladin
06-09-03, 04:10 PM
What he said.

And I really don't care about 512k cache when the 256k AthXPs commonly were equal to them
Consider that AMD still has more L1 cache to my knowledge, also.

In fact I care not about any of that. SSE2 has only recently become all that useful.

And I don't use laptops.

nVidi0t
06-09-03, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by The Baron
SSE was a extended version of 3DNow, you know.

I'm not saying that any of that should be of any use to you. I was merely using it as an example to show the past areas in which Intel innovated and AMD followed.

The Baron
06-09-03, 05:31 PM
I'm confused.

3DNow was first in K6-2s, which debuted back when the P2 line just got to a 100Mhz bus (350s).

So, then Intel takes the idea, implements it, calls it SSE, and makes the Pentium 3.

How are they innovating again?

nVidi0t
06-09-03, 05:40 PM
Sorry, I quoted the wrong person. My post was referring to savagepaladin who said none of the stuff was useful to him.

And yes, 3dnow! was AMD innovating, but that was a long time ago and I have yet to see anything else which hasn't already been done by Intel to come out of the AMD camp.

The Baron
06-09-03, 05:47 PM
I have yet to see anything else which hasn't already been done by Intel to come out of the AMD camp.
*cough x86-64 cough* ;)

nVidi0t
06-09-03, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by The Baron
*cough x86-64 cough* ;)

That's not out of the AMD camp yet, and Intel will probably develop the upcoming P4's to support both 32 bit and 64 bit and just unlock it when they decide it's needed.

The Baron
06-09-03, 06:00 PM
That's not out of the AMD camp yet, and Intel will probably develop the upcoming P4's to support both 32 bit and 64 bit and just unlock it when they decide it's needed.
Yes it is (Opteron), and Intel has said repeatedly that they will not support x86-64 (unless it is a humongo success, and they apparently have a "contingency plan" for that). But Intel has not altered plans for the next P4 (Prestonia? I have no idea what it's called, somebody correct me) at all based on A64.