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NarcissistZero
04-13-09, 04:40 PM
Check it: http://news.bigdownload.com/2009/04/13/departures-and-additions-for-pc-gaming-alliance/

Not exactly thrilling news.

Buio
04-13-09, 07:38 PM
They should take after Stardock and Impulse. No intrusive protections that mess up your PC, just a serial if you want to get updates and play online.

Sony with their SecuROM sucks, they are as bad as StarForce or worse. Maybe it's their plan to sell more PS3 games. :P

nekrosoft13
04-13-09, 07:47 PM
pirates are funny bunch, first spread fud about protection that was most effective (starforce) until it pretty much it died out only active in eastern europe.

Now that starfoce is done with, pirates turn their attention to securom, next devil to slain.

Funny thing is that SPTD (part of Daemon tools) is probably the reason that kills optical drives, learned that myself when i noticed that SPTD was messing with my Blu-ray drive and few more months and it would slowly kill it.

People on DuplexSecure (developer of SPTD) and Daemon Tools forums some of them did realize that SPTD slows down optical drives and slowly kills them.

NaitoSan
04-13-09, 10:37 PM
Interesting. But then why aren't Valve, EA and few others' not part of PC Gaming Alliance? PC Gaming Alliance means nothing really. Unless I'm mistaken.

evox
04-13-09, 11:55 PM
Don't think Valve feels the need to branch out. I mean, they are quite successful right now and seeing as PCGA is kind of a joke, it would be waste of their time/money. EA is too console happy to join PCGA, though most of their recent ports have been pretty good.

Buio
04-14-09, 01:56 AM
pirates are funny bunch, first spread fud about protection that was most effective (starforce) until it pretty much it died out only active in eastern europe

Good to know it worked then, because starforce and securom sucks. I hope securom goes the same way now.

And yeah, I buy the games I play.

You are right about daemon tools and the STD driver. Would never install it on my PC, it's a hack. There are better tools for image mounting (for legal purposes that is).

Rakeesh
04-14-09, 02:22 AM
pirates are funny bunch, first spread fud about protection that was most effective (starforce) until it pretty much it died out only active in eastern europe.

Ultimately these forms of copy protection aren't going to work though. I don't think any have truly worked, to the best of my knowledge there haven't been any games that haven't seen a "zero day" release on usenet groups (though I haven't kept up with this in about 6 years, I don't imagine much has changed, as various groups have been promising foolproof copy protection systems since the early 80's and all of them have been quickly broken.)

The best you can do is prevent the game from being leaked on the internet prior to its actual street date, and preventing certain "services" from being available to the pirated copies (e.g. multiplayer.)

These copy protection systems end up being an extra unnecessary cost to the publisher and potentially an inconvenience to the end user.

My only beef with these is that they install programs and drivers that ALWAYS remain memory resident even when the game isn't running. Anybody who is like me doesn't like this kind of thing, because these types of programs tend to add up, and eventually that leads to you having a slower computer.

NarcissistZero
04-14-09, 02:27 AM
to the best of my knowledge there haven't been any games that haven't seen a "zero day" release on usenet groups (though I haven't kept up with this in about 6 years, I don't imagine much has changed, as various groups have been promising foolproof copy protection systems since the early 80's and all of them have been quickly broken.)

I'm pretty sure many of the recent online activation games haven't been cracked until after release. I have been shown huge forum threads on pirate boards for games like Mass Effect where pirates complain back and forth over not finding a working copy of the game on torrents.

There is a massive difference between finding the files online, which most people post as proof no DRM works, and finding working files that play the whole game.

Rakeesh
04-14-09, 02:38 AM
I'm pretty sure many of the recent online activation games haven't been cracked until after release.

It's usually day of, so technically zero day (or if you really want to get technical, day one.)

I have been shown huge forum threads on pirate boards for games like Mass Effect where pirates complain back and forth over not finding a working copy of the game on torrents.

I haven't been involved in the scene for quite some time, but last I recall most release groups were very anti peer to peer. They tend to like to get credit for their releases from their "peers" so to speak, but peer to peer networks take away that personal side of piracy that they take pride in, so they don't like it.

nekrosoft13
04-14-09, 03:06 AM
Chaos Theory took about a year to crack, so yeah i would call starforce effective

Tages can be quite effective as well

nekrosoft13
04-14-09, 03:13 AM
You are right about daemon tools and the STD driver. Would never install it on my PC, it's a hack. There are better tools for image mounting (for legal purposes that is).

SPTD issues are harder to spot with DVD drive, but with BD drive it is very obvious, it turned my 6xBD drive to 3.3xBD drive.

cause quite a packing for me, even reinstalled windows at that point (made a backup before). And then while on fresh install i started getting windows back to the way i normally use it and constantly testing it at every change i would make.

And then I found it, right after installing SPTD, optical drives started getting screwed up.

Restored back-up, uninstalled Daemon Tools and SPTD and everything was back normal.

K007
04-14-09, 05:07 AM
pirates are funny bunch, first spread fud about protection that was most effective (starforce) until it pretty much it died out only active in eastern europe.

Now that starfoce is done with, pirates turn their attention to securom, next devil to slain.

Funny thing is that SPTD (part of Daemon tools) is probably the reason that kills optical drives, learned that myself when i noticed that SPTD was messing with my Blu-ray drive and few more months and it would slowly kill it.

People on DuplexSecure (developer of SPTD) and Daemon Tools forums some of them did realize that SPTD slows down optical drives and slowly kills them.

Copy protection still fails tho. it doesn't stop pirating, and it doesn't slow it down either. They need to come up with something that truly stops it, i mean full dead stop. Atm all these protections don't do anything to prevent pirating.

Badboy_12345
04-14-09, 12:39 PM
pirates are funny bunch, first spread fud about protection that was most effective (starforce) until it pretty much it died out only active in eastern europe.

Now that starfoce is done with, pirates turn their attention to securom, next devil to slain.

Funny thing is that SPTD (part of Daemon tools) is probably the reason that kills optical drives, learned that myself when i noticed that SPTD was messing with my Blu-ray drive and few more months and it would slowly kill it.

People on DuplexSecure (developer of SPTD) and Daemon Tools forums some of them did realize that SPTD slows down optical drives and slowly kills them.

Yeah damn fud about starforce!
*wakes up from the dreamworld*

Starforce was the worst copy protection ever invented.
Even the developers of starforce later said to the game developers to release patches that removes it from the games!

I guess you are the one that thinks Sony XCP protection was good and nothing wrong with.. it was just the pirates that complained :rolleyes:

NarcissistZero
04-14-09, 12:49 PM
I haven't been involved in the scene for quite some time, but last I recall most release groups were very anti peer to peer. They tend to like to get credit for their releases from their "peers" so to speak, but peer to peer networks take away that personal side of piracy that they take pride in, so they don't like it.

I just wrote torrents there as that is the usual methods... it wasn't the lack of a torrent release they were complaining about, it was the lack of any real working releases anywhere.

Matter of fact I just saw someone complain the other day that you have to wade through 100 non-working Mass Effect downloads to find the one that actually works.

In short: anti-piracy measures work a lot better than a lot of people given them credit for. They in no way stop piracy, but they can delay it significantly or make it especially annoying to do.

nekrosoft13
04-14-09, 02:28 PM
Copy protection still fails tho. it doesn't stop pirating, and it doesn't slow it down either. They need to come up with something that truly stops it, i mean full dead stop. Atm all these protections don't do anything to prevent pirating.

in the end it does fail, but few examples

starforce: Chaos Theory took about a year for a working crack
securom: bioshock stopped the dayone pirating for 1-2 weeks
tages: new rid**** game, still protected.

in the long run off course it will fail, but the long run really doesn't matter, right around the release day is what matters.

nekrosoft13
04-14-09, 02:35 PM
Yeah damn fud about starforce!
*wakes up from the dreamworld*

Starforce was the worst copy protection ever invented.
Even the developers of starforce later said to the game developers to release patches that removes it from the games!

I guess you are the one that thinks Sony XCP protection was good and nothing wrong with.. it was just the pirates that complained :rolleyes:



When Blizzard or Epic removes cd/dvd checks from their games, oh my that means cd/dvd checks are evil?

My point was that that it really wasn't starforce that caused most of them problems, but people trying to go around it. Starforce did cause problems when you mess around against it with bunch of anti-starforce tools/utilities. When bunch of kiddos try to bypass it, it does cause problems.

Badboy_12345
04-14-09, 04:34 PM
When Blizzard or Epic removes cd/dvd checks from their games, oh my that means cd/dvd checks are evil?

My point was that that it really wasn't starforce that caused most of them problems, but people trying to go around it. Starforce did cause problems when you mess around against it with bunch of anti-starforce tools/utilities. When bunch of kiddos try to bypass it, it does cause problems.

you just must agree that any protection that installs itself like starforce did is not good in any way.

It functions like the sony rootkit

nekrosoft13
04-14-09, 06:37 PM
you just must agree that any protection that installs itself like starforce did is not good in any way.

It functions like the sony rootkit

Again, rootkit in general is not ok, but they are a lot more common then you think.

few examples
http://forums.spybot.info/showthread.php?t=27491

Sony rootkit wasn't good, but that doesn't mean that every rootkit is automatically evil, almost all Anti-Virus software vendors use rootkit to hide themself from certain virues/trojans. Alcohol and Daemon Tools also use rootkit in a bad way, it screws with your optical drives.

Buio
04-14-09, 07:47 PM
My point was that that it really wasn't starforce that caused most of them problems, but people trying to go around it. Starforce did cause problems when you mess around against it with bunch of anti-starforce tools/utilities. When bunch of kiddos try to bypass it, it does cause problems.

And you have come to this conclusion from, assuming all that reported problems are pirates and believing what Starforce said?

fizzelopeguss
04-15-09, 01:28 AM
I'm pretty sure many of the recent online activation games haven't been cracked until after release. I have been shown huge forum threads on pirate boards for games like Mass Effect where pirates complain back and forth over not finding a working copy of the game on torrents.

Which is all that matters in the end, games are notoriously front loaded when it comes to sales. Delay piracy for a week and PC games have a fighting chance. Didn't they end up removing all the activation **** later on?

stefan9
04-15-09, 07:50 AM
Which is all that matters in the end, games are notoriously front loaded when it comes to sales. Delay piracy for a week and PC games have a fighting chance. Didn't they end up removing all the activation **** later on?

BioShock had its limited activations removed, the ea games have not had that done. All that EA has done is give us tools to manage the activations with after a year, still limited to 5 activations.

saturnotaku
04-15-09, 09:22 AM
in the long run off course it will fail, but the long run really doesn't matter, right around the release day is what matters.

IIRC, games see something like 75-85% of their sales in their first three weeks at retail. Obviously, you have exceptions such as Steam when they do a weekend deal. The point still stands - if pirates can be held at bay during the critical first couple weeks after launch, developers and publishers should do just fine.

The main thing that bugs me about some copy protection schemes, namely SecuROM, is that some versions make it hard for drives to read the disc in the first place. I had to buy a new DVD-RW drive not once, but twice, because neither one would read the Crysis disc. No virtual CD software was installed as I don't use those programs.

glObalist
04-16-09, 07:20 AM
SPTD issues are harder to spot with DVD drive, but with BD drive it is very obvious, it turned my 6xBD drive to 3.3xBD drive.


So, how hard exactly are they to spot with DVD drives? I don't mean to jump on the SF=TEHEVIL badwagon (in fact quite the opposite, I think it was the best protection ever) but assuming that since SPDT crippled YOUR BD drive it also causes DVD drives to malfunction, and thus finding a quick scapegoat for the SF fiasco is kind of bold.

Misfire
04-16-09, 12:05 PM
Again, rootkit in general is not ok, but they are a lot more common then you think.

few examples
http://forums.spybot.info/showthread.php?t=27491

Sony rootkit wasn't good, but that doesn't mean that every rootkit is automatically evil, almost all Anti-Virus software vendors use rootkit to hide themself from certain virues/trojans. Alcohol and Daemon Tools also use rootkit in a bad way, it screws with your optical drives.

Regarding the SPTD issue with crippling your speed, would MagicISO (Magic-Disc Addon) have the same effect? It doesn't use SPTD, whcih is why im using it with Win7 right now.

PowerISO also doesn't use SPTD but it runs slow as hell for me on Win7.

nekrosoft13
04-16-09, 01:16 PM
Regarding the SPTD issue with crippling your speed, would MagicISO (Magic-Disc Addon) have the same effect? It doesn't use SPTD, whcih is why im using it with Win7 right now.

PowerISO also doesn't use SPTD but it runs slow as hell for me on Win7.

magic iso, doesn't cause any issues, I use it right, also the tool from slysoft works fine.

So, how hard exactly are they to spot with DVD drives? I don't mean to jump on the SF=TEHEVIL badwagon (in fact quite the opposite, I think it was the best protection ever) but assuming that since SPDT crippled YOUR BD drive it also causes DVD drives to malfunction, and thus finding a quick scapegoat for the SF fiasco is kind of bold.

with BD, it cut down my drive speed from 6x to 3.3x, burns still somehow finished around 6x with verbatim disc, but end of disc often wasn't redable. reading was limited to 3.3x. At that time I mostly burned 2x and 4x Panasonic disc, so didn't strike me as a huge issue.
also it is easy to spot with burst speed, without SPTD it is about 54-63mbps, with SPTD it gets cut down to about 14mbps.

here is a link to the issue
http://club.cdfreaks.com/f142/lg-ggw-h20l-scans-discussion-here-234488/index6.html#post2124738

edit btw, here is more about the dvd issue
http://forum.duplexsecure.com/showthread.php?t=498
http://forum.duplexsecure.com/showthread.php?t=468
http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=20488

like i said before, it wouldn't suprise me if SPTD was responsible for killing drives, and pirated basically blamed it on starforce.