next Xbox - nVidia out, ATi in?

[suburbanguy]

If I remember correctly, X-box came out with a Geforce 3.5 when Geforce 3's were new to the PC, so it is likely that X-box2 would have whatever GPU is brand new to PC in christmas 2005... probably NV45/R450 (Loci revision, whatever the number)) or maybe even NV50/R500.

yeah, although the original Xbox specification said it would use an NV25... but this NV25 had monester specifications, more than even the Ti4600. the Xbox NV25 was to have 4.8 billion pixel/s fillrate and the same texel rate. 300M micro polys or 150M regular polys. but those specs were BS anyway. the actual Xbox got a 233 Mhz NV2A which is more like an "NV23" although in SOME areas, its more capable than even the NV25. (but not in others areas) the instruction length of the NV2A for instance, is longer than NV25's. but still, NV2A is of a lower performance as has weaker FSAA ability. its just basicly a GeForce 3.5 or "NV23" as far as most are concerned.


as for Xbox Next, if history were to repeat, one would expect something inbetween NV50-NV55, a "NV5A" or "NV53" just as Xbox had NV2A. if Nvidia powered. if MS goes with ATi, then I expect a modified R500 or R550. the NV4X and R4XX would be too outdated for a console coming out in late 2005 or late 2006.

[DaveW]

I wouldn't be suprised if its nVidia that told Microsoft to get foobared. With the original Xbox, Microsoft kept demanding lower and lower costs from nVidia, "we need you to cut *your* costs, so *we* can make more profit, Bill Gates is saving up to buy one of the moons of Jupiter". nVidia probably wasn't making much money off the Xbox.

With the new Xbox, Microsoft has demanded an "open design" ... *yuk* I cringe just reading those two words. It just sounds like they will be changing their mind all the time, with the Microsoft marketing team running the show, constantly changing the specs to whatever the current hype is about, and then like 3 months before the release date say "okay, here are the final specs, we need this by November". Then the tape-out is rushed, yields are low, fab costs are high, the product is 6 months late, and Microsoft will be blaming their supplier for it.

[GlowStick]

Defiantly, M$ cannot keep costs down like sony, because sony uses cheepr hardware, most of whats developed in house so no markup

and sony has allways started to consoldate chips into one chip to cut costs even less, they are sapostaly trying to do that right now, like they did with the PS One, witch was a very cool idea!

[Richthofen]

Originally posted by DaveW
I wouldn't be suprised if its nVidia that told Microsoft to get foobared. With the original Xbox, Microsoft kept demanding lower and lower costs from nVidia, "we need you to cut *your* costs, so *we* can make more profit, Bill Gates is saving up to buy one of the moons of Jupiter". nVidia probably wasn't making much money off the Xbox.

With the new Xbox, Microsoft has demanded an "open design" ... *yuk* I cringe just reading those two words. It just sounds like they will be changing their mind all the time, with the Microsoft marketing team running the show, constantly changing the specs to whatever the current hype is about, and then like 3 months before the release date say "okay, here are the final specs, we need this by November". Then the tape-out is rushed, yields are low, fab costs are high, the product is 6 months late, and Microsoft will be blaming their supplier for it.

well a agree with you to the most extend but disagree with
"
nVidia probably wasn't making much money off the Xbox.
"

That is simply not true. They are making very good money. Of course MS hold money back and wanted Nvidia to reduce prices but you know MS signed a contract and this contract showed fixed prices black on white. MS lost the arbitration in every aspect that's for sure. There was no room for discussion in that contract.
MS had to pay the money back (40 Mio in Q4) and is now paying the original chipset prices and that means 32 to 35% margins for Nvidia on every x-box chipset sold.
That is pretty good money!

They did not have to take much risk on x-box, MS financed the development. Nvidia was able to sell other PC products out of the x-box development (GF4, nForce, nForce2) and Nvidia is getting fixed prices.
That is a damn good deal and has nothing to do with Nvidia not making money on x-box.

But Nvidia would not be Nvidia if they would like to keep that kind of contract condistions for the future. Obvously MS does not want to pay for x-box2 chipsets what Nvidia requests.
One thing is for sure. No matter who is going to supply MS's x-box2 won't get such good conditions anymore. That IHV will get a lot less money and has to take much more risk than Nvidia did with x-box1.
And that is what i like about Nvidia. Knowning you have a lot of possibilities for business and to have the confidence to say NO to a certain deal!
If they think they can't make much money on x-box2 - than i would say let that deal go. Still a lot of time to put some ressources to other business fields until 2006 when x-box1 will phase out. Until then they will continue to squeeze money out of MS :)

[B&R]

Originally posted by Richthofen
If they think they can't make much money on x-box2 - than i would say let that deal go. Still a lot of time to put some ressources to other business fields until 2006 when x-box1 will phase out. Until then they will continue to squeeze money out of MS :)
I think they are goin to make money with xbox 2 with xbox being so popular now.

[Richthofen]

Originally posted by B&R
I think they are goin to make money with xbox 2 with xbox being so popular now.

the question is how much money.
Makes no sense to destroy your average margins to get such a deal.
It also depends on the contract.
The contract between NV and MS shows fixed chipset prices.
I don't think MS will sign again such a contract and in that case the IHV will have to take a lot more risk.

If that deal is not good - let it go. That's what i have to say about that.
2005/2006 is still littlebit away - so enough time to sqeeze every dollar out of MS you can get :)

[reever2]

Originally posted by gstanford
I doubt nVidia will care much about losing the X-Box 2 contract - rumor has it they will supply chips for the Sony Playstation 3.


Seriously doubt it.

[Ghola]

Originally posted by B&R
I think they are goin to make money with xbox 2 with xbox being so popular now.

Hex-box !!? whats that, they don't even have a real 2d shooter. Bahh , consoles suck now. Al we have it to play the same old cookie cutter games over and over; just called different names. Lame

[Brimstone]

Originally posted by Uttar
Hey, I know that! :)
Note that I said "derivative". My point is that the R500 technology is still very interesting for consoles. So basing it on something like the RV500 ( no idea if such a part even exists ) might make sense.

Also remember the XBox 2 GPU will likely be done on 0.09µ, considering the timeframe. And that Sony is going to be VERY aggressive with the PS3 ( Cell, ... ) - so MS shouldn't take shortcuts IMO.


Uttar


If Intel is going to create a chipset with a ATI VPU core for the PC market, then I think it's likely that Intel will end up handling the majority of the consoles creation.

It could go something like this. Intel licenses a version of the R500 core from ATI. Intel then creates a new chipset with the ATI VPU core integrated for a .065 fab. Two markets get the chipset. One is sold to Microsoft for its X Box 2 and the other goes to the PC market.

[egdusp]

Originally posted by Uttar
A R500 derivative is more likely. Basing a console being released in a few years on tech released nearly a year ago *isn't* a good idea - and the R500 got a lot of cool rumored innovations, so why not that one? :)


Uttar

So, that's the first R500 rumour I have heard (besides the R400 being canceld and now becoming the basic for a the R500).

Any source about it?

egdusp

[Carbon Unit]

Wow Xbox 2 to use the same gpu as the Game cube 2....not, I don't think M$ will be using ATI since Nintendo allready owns a active contract with ATI...it just wouldnt look good...2 consoles using the same gpu