next Xbox - nVidia out, ATi in?

[suburbanguy]

Keep in mind, this isn't the first time there have been reports of
Microsoft going with ATI for the next Xbox, instead of nVidia, it's
only one of the latest.

Should be taken with a grain of salt, but it looks to be the case, at
least at this moment in time. remember the next Xbox is 2 or 3 years
away.


http://spong.com/index.asp?art=5053

Xbox 2 powered by ATi 9th Jun 2003
Link to This Article
http://spong.com/x?art=5053


All change as burnt bridge spells new MS provider.

Senior development sources in the UK have today revealed to us that Microsoft's next generation Xbox will use an ATi graphics chipset, following Microsoft's apparent inability to work cohesively with former provider nVidia.

Not known as the most forgiving company in the world, it seems that Microsoft has simply tired of the bitter arbitration it found itself involved in, following the breakdown of any productive working relationship with nVidia. As you may know, the Xbox's inordinately high production costs saw Microsoft put the squeeze on nVidia over its pricing for the Xbox's graphical heart. nVidia resisted, and no clear solution could be found, leaving both firms no option but to take to the arbitration table.

Although the two came out from negotiations full of smiles and
handshakes, today's news clearly demonstrates that the rift became too big to breach, leaving Microsoft to turn to the only other company able to supply graphics power to Xbox 2's projected output.

Microsoft's camp is understandably quiet on the issue, with Xbox head honcho and universal nice guy Ed Fries today telling us "I can never comment on rumours."

Predictably, nVidia was also quiet, simply saying that it only
comments on such matters by way of official release.

It's worth looking at ATi's deal with Microsoft in perspective for a
moment. At present, Nintendo works with the firm as it supplies the polygon magic known as Flipper that powers GameCube. Indeed, both Nintendo and ATi have stated that they see themselves working on projects together in the future. Although this may seem a little strange, you need to understand the relationship enjoyed between Microsoft and Nintendo.

Both firms have their eyes on Sony's massive market share and as such, an unofficial affiliation has formed between the two. At E3 this year, representatives from Nintendo and Microsoft were seen talking jovially together and there is back-slapping all round when any Xbox or GameCube title takes software sales away from the PlayStation.

But it's more than that. Microsoft and Nintendo in the US are
practically next-door neighbours in Redmond, Washington. They are socially active together and there is no bitterness between the two. As both firms have different goals, Nintendo to continue to release gaming consoles and Microsoft to steal Sony's dream of a media delivery hub for the living room, there is no direct conflict of interest as the market, with a smaller Sony, is big enough to support this.

We'll bring you everything on all next-generation consoles as it
breaks, and remember where you read this first.

[SurfMonkey]

I think this is old'ish news now. It was pretty well known that Nvidia weren't\aren't that interested in the next XBos deal. Especially after all the grief it caused them last time, I hope that if ATI get the deal it won't screw up their GPU production like it did with NVidia.

Considering thet they'll be going up against the PS3 and competing with themselves with Nintendo.

But there are many rumours going around that say NVidia is getting onboard with Sony via IBM.

I guess we'll just have to wait a couple of years to find out!!

[suburbanguy]

indeed! :D

[Uttar]

Well, from my understanding ( mostly speculation )
ArtX: Flipper
Malborough: R200
ArtX: R300
Malborough: Original R400 ( canned )
ArtX: XGPU 2
Malborough: R500


As I said, mostly speculation... I don't know where Nintendo comes in for the GC2 here, however - would suppose it might also be done by ArtX, or it might be a well modified derivative of the R500 - or they could be dividing their teams to make a third one for it...


Uttar

[Hanners]

Originally posted by Uttar
Well, from my understanding ( mostly speculation )
ArtX: Flipper
Malborough: R200
ArtX: R300
Malborough: Original R400 ( canned )
ArtX: XGPU 2
Malborough: R500


As I said, mostly speculation... I don't know where Nintendo comes in for the GC2 here, however - would suppose it might also be done by ArtX, or it might be a well modified derivative of the R500 - or they could be dividing their teams to make a third one for it...


Uttar

That doesn't make sense - ArtX engineers were split across both of ATi's design teams when they were purchased by ATi, so there is no ArtX design team per se - Each team consists of both former ArtX engineers and 'old school' ATi guys.

[Spiritwalker]

Best just call them the East (Canadian) team and the West Coast (American, Californian) team.

[Uttar]

Okay, okay, so let's say there's a Malborough team ( mostly ATI, some ArtX ) and a Californian team ( mostly ArtX, some ATI )

I really think this would be roughly accurate, I'm pretty sure I've seen mentionned several times by people the R300 was mostly ArtX work - but it could be people hiding speculation as facts, of course...


Uttar

[gstanford]

I doubt nVidia will care much about losing the X-Box 2 contract - rumor has it they will supply chips for the Sony Playstation 3.

It will be a good thing for ATi also - they will finally be able to put that dirty great stockpile of 8500 GPU's to good use - microsoft will be happy due to reduced costs :D

[GlowStick]

Yeah, if Xbox or other consoles dont look for the 'newist GPU' on the market,

If anything Xbox2 will have some sort of r300 variant, but the main agenda for all consolmakers is cost!

they gotta cut corners someware when they sell you a crappy box for 299$ that includes everything cpu/gpu/ram/hdd/cdrom/ethernet card etc.

[R.Carter]

Originally posted by gstanford
I doubt nVidia will care much about losing the X-Box 2 contract - rumor has it they will supply chips for the Sony Playstation 3.

Seriously doubt it since Sony typically wants to make all of the "important" silicon in their products themselves.

Sony Corp's Executive Deputy President Ken Kutaragi is quoted as saying

"We will continue to procure from outside sources commodity chips, de facto standard LSIs and chips used in small quantities, but we will try to produce within the Sony group as much as possible chips with which we plan to differentiate the architecture itself and LSIs needed in large quantities," he said.

in this article Sony to Boost In-House Microchip Production, Double CCD Output, Mass Produce CMOS Sensors at SCE Plant (http://neasia.nikkeibp.com/wcs/leaf?CID=onair/asabt/news/249981).

While this isn't specifically about the PlayStation 3 it seems to be a long standing Sony practice. and I can't see them changing unless they have a VERY compelling reason, especially considering cost issues.

At best they may buy some IP or something like that but I can't see them buying chips from Nvidia.

[Hanners]

Originally posted by GlowStick
If anything Xbox2 will have some sort of r300 variant, but the main agenda for all consolmakers is cost!

My bet (as technology stands right now, it'll probably have changed a lot by the time X-Box 2 comes to market) is that they'll use a modified RV350 core - As I see it it is has everything that a console grpahics core should be: It's fast, it has low power consumption, and it runs cool (They could probably get away with passive cooling if they clock it right).

[DSC]

This was the SAME website that claimed HL2 is an Nvidia only EXCLUSIVE title, eventhough later it was shown on the R9800Pro at E3.......

[Uttar]

A R500 derivative is more likely. Basing a console being released in a few years on tech released nearly a year ago *isn't* a good idea - and the R500 got a lot of cool rumored innovations, so why not that one? :)


Uttar

[GlowStick]

Originally posted by Uttar
A R500 derivative is more likely. Basing a console being released in a few years on tech released nearly a year ago *isn't* a good idea - and the R500 got a lot of cool rumored innovations, so why not that one? :)


Uttar

OMG, xbox 2 will never see a r500!

it will never see a r400 or loci or whatever the hell is 'new'

consoles are very cheep, they cannot use high end componants at ALL. But they can use yesdtersays mid range componants, ala 733mhz CELERON, and whatever value chip the xbox uses, nvidia said they made a new value chip tha was pin compatabile. keyword, value!

[R.Carter]

Originally posted by Uttar
A R500 derivative is more likely. Basing a console being released in a few years on tech released nearly a year ago *isn't* a good idea - and the R500 got a lot of cool rumored innovations, so why not that one? :)


Uttar
That's massive overkill for a console unless the console has HDTV output or something like that.

NTSC is 480i resolution, so 30fps @ 640x480 is all that's really needed for most consoles, unless the console has support for HDTV progressive scan output or something like that. Then a more powerful graphics contorller might be suitable,.

Sure it's good marketing to have the worlds most powerful graphics controller in your console, but then who wants to pay for it? Especially if you aren't going to get any real benefit for sticking it into your console.

[Uttar]

Hey, I know that! :)
Note that I said "derivative". My point is that the R500 technology is still very interesting for consoles. So basing it on something like the RV500 ( no idea if such a part even exists ) might make sense.

Also remember the XBox 2 GPU will likely be done on 0.09µ, considering the timeframe. And that Sony is going to be VERY aggressive with the PS3 ( Cell, ... ) - so MS shouldn't take shortcuts IMO.


Uttar

[GlowStick]

Originally posted by Uttar
Hey, I know that! :)
Note that I said "derivative". My point is that the R500 technology is still very interesting for consoles. So basing it on something like the RV500 ( no idea if such a part even exists ) might make sense.

Also remember the XBox 2 GPU will likely be done on 0.09µ, considering the timeframe. And that Sony is going to be VERY aggressive with the PS3 ( Cell, ... ) - so MS shouldn't take shortcuts IMO.


Uttar

even though both are being very aggressive, they only have to make hardware that is slightly better than eachother, and as sony has shown year after year, hardware dosent mean SQUAT, games is what matters.

Also, how are they gonna stick a 200$ video card in a 299$ box : (

[Nutty]

640x480 @ 30 fps???? That crap!! Even xbox1 can do better than that. Even most gamecube games do better than that! 30fps looks awful in console games. Trust me, I hate it when my current game drops to 30fps. 60 is sooo much nicer.

Future consoles shouldn't be aiming for anything less than HDTV @ 60fps!

I very much doubt xbox2 will be based on anything less than R400/NV40 type architecture.. theres noway they'd use old R300 tech for a console thats gonna released in about 2 - 3 years!

[R.Carter]

Originally posted by Nutty
640x480 @ 30 fps???? That crap!!

Future consoles shouldn't be aiming for anything less than HDTV @ 60fps!
Yes, well the GameCube and XBox both support progressive scan output for games, right? So yeah, as I said you should be able to output at 60fps if you have a suitable display.

Not sure how many people have a HDTV display at the moment, but with HDTV coming "real soon" (2007?) I can see them getting more popular. Some people might be worried about possible burn-in from console games though.

Eventually, it all comes down to cost since someone has to pay for it. Can the console makers really afford to stick a ~$25 part into a sub $300 console? You have power budgets (want the cheapest power supply possible), thermal and noise issues.

Much better to make your own silicon to meet your own specific requirements. Of course, it's always best to use the most powerful chip possible, since you don't want to have to upgrade your console too soon after launch as the console has got to last about 5 years.

[Ninja Prime]

If I remember correctly, X-box came out with a Geforce 3.5 when Geforce 3's were new to the PC, so it is likely that X-box2 would have whatever GPU is brand new to PC in christmas 2005... probably NV45/R450 (Loci revision, whatever the number)) or maybe even NV50/R500.

[gokickrocks]

i think cell in the ps3 is more of a marketting gimmick...it shares resources with other ps3's through the internet, which means that it would have the added delay and that those who want to benefit need an internet connection...but that also means people can take resources from you as well, everyone that is online with a ps3 is playing a game already (assuming that the ps3 needs to be on, for the internet thing to work, unless people like leaving their ps3 on without playing it)...so if everyone thats online playing a game, how would you share resources if you need them yourself? steal the resources you were sharing to begin with?

im sure that i have confused some people that read my post

[Nutty]

Actually I answered that from a wrong perspective. All consoles are able to offer very high resolutions at 60fps. Its how hard the hardware is pushed by the developers that results in the final frame-rate.

[GlowStick]

Originally posted by Nutty
Actually I answered that from a wrong perspective. All consoles are able to offer very high resolutions at 60fps. Its how hard the hardware is pushed by the developers that results in the final frame-rate.

what resolutions can developers choose to output, eg, what resoltuion is the standard that TV's have? i thought it was really piss poor like 300x200 or something.

do you guys have to make it render bigger for HDTV's?

[R.Carter]

Originally posted by GlowStick
what resolutions can developers choose to output, eg, what resoltuion is the standard that TV's have? i thought it was really piss poor like 300x200 or something.

do you guys have to make it render bigger for HDTV's?
Yes, HDTV offers higher resolutions of 720p / 1080i (1280x720 and 1920x1080) while SDTV gives 480p (640x480 (4:3) and 853x480 (16:9)).

NTSC video is 525i and given the standard 4:3 aspect ratio that works out to be 680x525 or so. Good luck finding a source with that much resolution!

Most displays offer a pixel resolution of 640x480 for NTSC and 768x576 for PAL.

[suburbanguy]

well coming from Spong, it means nothing, but anyway here:


http://www.spong.com/index.asp?art=5098


Senior nVidia partner concretes gossip.

We can today reveal that ATi will definitely supply the graphical
heart of the next-generation of Xbox, following last week's story that
this massive shift was underway.

Speaking under terms of strict anonymity, a senior source close to
nVidia said, "They [nVidia] simply didn't want to meet Microsoft's
demands for the floating design for Xbox Next. It didn't make sense to
partner on the project. At this moment in time, ATi is working with
Microsoft."

As you may have read previously, nVidia's shares dropped and ATi's
were bolstered by the story as it reverberated around the games
industry, underlining ongoing development gossip.

However, our source went on: "Although Microsoft is working with ATi
at the moment, the relatively short research and development process
for Xbox 2 means that if ATi cannot fulfil, Microsoft may well decide
to revert to nVidia, or even go it alone."

We'll bring you more on all this, as it breaks.