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AirRaid
05-25-09, 07:04 PM
Found this on NeoGAF, credit to maniac-kun for posting this

id showed a short technology demo of the new idtech 6 to german magazine gamestar. id is experimenting with Voxel/Raytracing graphics:

http://g.imagehost.org/0501/800x6001_prop.jpg
http://g.imagehost.org/0555/800x6002_prop.jpg
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http://g.imagehost.org/0318/800x6005_prop.jpg
http://g.imagehost.org/0341/800x6006_prop.jpg
http://g.imagehost.org/0341/800x6006_prop.jpg
http://g.imagehost.org/0087/800x6007_prop.jpg

short video of the technology demo running at 60 fps on a Geforce GTX 280 on page 3
german: http://www.gamestar.de/hardware/specials/1956284/neue_id_software_engine_mit_voxel_grafik.html

auto translation: http://de.babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gamestar.de%2Fhardware%2Fsp ecials%2F1956284%2Fneue_id_software_engine_mit_vox el_grafik.html&lp=de_en&btnTrUrl=%C3%9Cbersetzen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpEpAFGplnI

SH64
05-25-09, 08:15 PM
WOW teh bigman is being used as a model for id tech 6?? :p

will be interesting to see how Voxel+RT fair against current rendering tech. I guess this means the coming back of the CPU computation power after being dismissed for several years!

jlippo
05-26-09, 05:31 AM
That demo isn't part of idtech6, it's a Siggraph2008 presentation by Jon Olick (http://s08.idav.ucdavis.edu/olick-current-and-next-generation-parallelism-in-games.pdf).
Voxels were traced on normal nvidia GPU using Cuda. (GTX280, if I remember correctly.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpEpAFGplnI&fmt=18

I personally will be thrilled to see what they will be used in the future and the filesizes.. ;)

jolle
05-26-09, 08:10 AM
Yeah I didnt see any mention of Id in the video.
There are a bunch of SVO stuff on youtube aswell.
But Carmack has been talking about using raytracing with stuff like this, instead of just putting it in and replacing rasterization straight off the bat, as Intel has done with a bunch of demos using different versions of the quake engines.

Noriega
05-26-09, 10:11 AM
Oh man Quake Engine you can do on it everything buy my question is can you frizzle eggs on Quake Engine?

Lfctony
05-26-09, 10:59 AM
Moar plastic... YAY!!! :headexplode:

OldOfEvil
05-26-09, 01:59 PM
Moar plastic... YAY!!! :headexplode:

Don't worry, things will get even more shiny!

Vanzagar
05-26-09, 05:24 PM
God, i wished they'd spend 10% of the time they spend on making these detailed models and put that time into a better story or game characters we can care about... I don;t really need to have detail on the fricken finger tips of my monsters... make the game somthing else then another pointless, point and shoot/stab gore fest...

Just my 2 cents...

Vanz

KasuCode
05-27-09, 12:07 AM
God, i wished they'd spend 10% of the time they spend on making these detailed models and put that time into a better story or game characters we can care about... I don;t really need to have detail on the fricken finger tips of my monsters... make the game somthing else then another pointless, point and shoot/stab gore fest...

Just my 2 cents...

Vanz

A picture is worth 1000 words. Use them and make up your own story.

jlippo
05-27-09, 02:20 AM
God, i wished they'd spend 10% of the time they spend on making these detailed models and put that time into a better story or game characters we can care about... I don;t really need to have detail on the fricken finger tips of my monsters... make the game somthing else then another pointless, point and shoot/stab gore fest...

I'm pretty sure the reason he used the monster for demonstration is because it was available and it had enough detail to make good demonstration.

It is very unlikely that SVO will be used for characters as the animating them is a lot harder than polygonal objects.
What you will see with the tech is very detailed freeform worlds with some seriously interesting local effects for shadows, reflections and such.

TheANIMAL
06-05-09, 05:37 AM
Bump.

I dont think some of you appreciate the importance of this demo. We are moving from mega textures in id tech 5 to real time mega geometry in id tech 6.


Theoretically speaking this opens up the possibility of simulations that go far beyond anything we have today. Theoretically voxells could allow every footprint to be real geometry, permanent and infintedly viewed form an infinite distance because the voxells are called into existance on a per pixel basis.

This technology also eliminates the need for LOD, completely eliminates it. I was really hoping for an ID demonstration at E3 but maybe it will happen a Siggraph instead.

Vanzagar
06-05-09, 11:20 AM
Bump.

I dont think some of you appreciate the importance of this demo.

I think you're right... there's too many grandiose claims out there that I can;t get excited about until I see/try a demo of it in action or at very least a decent vid demonstrating it in action... I got excited about Project Offset about 4 years ago and look where that's got me...

Vanz

Atomizer
06-06-09, 07:29 AM
WOW teh bigman is being used as a model for id tech 6?? :p

will be interesting to see how Voxel+RT fair against current rendering tech. I guess this means the coming back of the CPU computation power after being dismissed for several years!

Actually, GPU Compute will be coming into action, being able to run any code on the GPU instead of CPU

Soetdjuret
06-06-09, 03:45 PM
Is this supposed to be impressive? Crysis can do alot better than that. And, even so UE3 lol.

Wish we could see some pics from UE4.. it's gonna be sickenly nice,.

Atomizer
06-06-09, 04:54 PM
Is this supposed to be impressive? Crysis can do alot better than that. And, even so UE3 lol.

Wish we could see some pics from UE4.. it's gonna be sickenly nice,.

Yeah, imo it looks fairly crap, the voxel(I believe) looks to be introducing some artifacts on the model, causing it to look blocky, the model itself is great, but I think they need to get things looking a bit smoother.

Even though as suggested, this isnt really the new id tech engine, it still seems to me that while id continues to push technical advancement, their tech doesnt look as impressive as the other engines, its like in the early days of quake engine modding, when someone implemented HL1 BSP support, it still didnt look as good as it did in HL1(I assume it looks the same now though since they have changed the renderer enough)

TheANIMAL
06-07-09, 05:58 AM
This isn't designed for characters, or moving animatable objects really, at least not yet, i'm not sure why they chose to use a character to demonstrate it.

Don't forget this is still cutting edge technology even if this demo was last year, in all likelyhood improvements have been made sinse then anyway.

What this technology shows is a perfect system for detail to increase for objects in the foreground and for detail to decrease for objects as they move away. It. Eliminates. LOD.

This basicly makes John Carmack a plenepotentiary for the future of real time graphics.

Atomizer
06-07-09, 10:37 AM
This isn't designed for characters, or moving animatable objects really, at least not yet, i'm not sure why they chose to use a character to demonstrate it.

Don't forget this is still cutting edge technology even if this demo was last year, in all likelyhood improvements have been made sinse then anyway.

What this technology shows is a perfect system for detail to increase for objects in the foreground and for detail to decrease for objects as they move away. It. Eliminates. LOD.

This basicly makes John Carmack a plenepotentiary for the future of real time graphics.

He always has been, but my point while he is ahead of things engine tech wise, it just doesnt look as pretty, I mean if you look at all the games using direct ID tech, they pretty much lost their edge after doom, Quake was a huge technical feat, with true 3d texturemapped levels, lightmaps etc.
Duke3d, while essentially running on the same kind of tech as doom 1 and 2(but beefed up), generally looked much better, prolly not the best example, but since Duke3d is the only game I can think of that was released within a couple of months of Quake, its the closest I have :P
I cant remember what games came out around the time of Quake 2 and Quake 3, but I am sure it follows the same path, impressive tech, just not as pretty as the competition.
Of course, I know this is just looking at their games and not looking at 3rd party games using their engines, I think Half-Life 1 is based off a heavily modified Quake 1 engine, but I cant remember when HL1 came out, to compare it to what level idtech was at, I think it came out sometime between quake 2 and quake 3, which would be about right,

pakotlar
06-07-09, 06:14 PM
This isn't designed for characters, or moving animatable objects really, at least not yet, i'm not sure why they chose to use a character to demonstrate it.

Don't forget this is still cutting edge technology even if this demo was last year, in all likelyhood improvements have been made sinse then anyway.

What this technology shows is a perfect system for detail to increase for objects in the foreground and for detail to decrease for objects as they move away. It. Eliminates. LOD.

This basicly makes John Carmack a plenepotentiary for the future of real time graphics.

Be honest, did you use plenepotentiary so that we would have to google it and bow to your wisdom? :captnkill: Well, i'm not getting on my knees for you buster.

Anyways, you have it wrong. From everything I've read sparse voxel octree is a highly granular LOD system. Basically the way it works is that it links many many LOD's together in a hierarchy that is view-distance dependent. My guess is that it is automatically generated using perspective calculations. This is a massive amount of data, but the system loads it dynamically as needed, so performance remains steady, and very good.

I think that theoretically you should be loading a very similar amount of information at each LOD. So the hit for having a very expensive model in the world is pretty much just memory based. Since you're dealing with a fixed amount of pixels on screen, there shouldn't really be any fluctuation in computing requirements (besides bandwidth and memory) over having a relatively simple model (though obviously the lowest bound is where each pixel in the sillhoute area represents data describing the model). Voxels are obviously exponentially more expensive than pixels, but I'm not sure how expensive they are relative to polygons. I do know that polygons become very expensive at sub-pixel divisions.

The reason that SVO's are bad for animation is that the octree has to be generated for each frame of the animation, which becomes prohibitively expensive on the memory side (not sure about the calculations involved in generation...some latency incured certainly). Anyways, for character models I don't see much of a point in using voxels. You quickly reach diminishing returns (for instance, a 20-30k model with normals looks very good; 200k cars are increadibly smooth), and I doubt you would notice or care about the difference between a 7M+ triangle voxel model or a 200k polygon model with proper use of normal maps. Animation tools for polygonal models are already in place and refined (come a long way since Studio Max 2, which is 1st proggy I used). Voxels are apparently more efficient with radiosity and raytracing though. But lighting for individual characters is probably relatively cheap compared to lighting the game world. Some clever tricks could integrate them wel with a raytraced SVO world.