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View Full Version : Are you disappointed like me?


sharky
06-16-03, 12:08 PM
You can say I've been looking up ANYTHING I could about the NV35 for months now. I can't help myself, as I'm sure you all can't either. Do you all remember the "first, behind the doors look" of the NV35, where they claim an UNDERCLOCKED NV35 absolutely smoked the NV30? If you're like me, that set my personal timetable for my next big upgrade. Well, how come the NV35 barely beats the NV30 now...? I am not NVIDIA bashing, as I'm trying hard, very hard, to find a good reason to spend $500 on the NV35. I have to be honest, I feel let down. Like a sucker who got caught up in the hype. I have no problem parting with $500 if I know what I'm getting...but things seem very unclear with this card; some benchmarks look GREAT, and others flat out SUCK!!

Back to what I was saying: Were they lying to us? Do you all remember when the news came out about the NV35 and how it was absolutely awesome, even underclocked? I wonder if they could NOW actually underclock an NV35 to see what the benchmarks reveal. If you remember the hype, like I do, could it be that the DOOM III benchmarks are more of the SAME hype? I mean, how can the NV35 really outperform the r350 by that much of a margin, when it really can't outperform the r350 in many benchmarks I've seen posted? It wins some, it loses some...but all along, the r350 has better IQ, which is painful for an NVIDIA loyalist like me to admit.

Why buy the NV35 I ask myself...because it is supposed to play DOOM III better? Can you all tell me WHY the NV35 is going to be better then the r350 for DOOM III and future games?

The Baron
06-16-03, 12:13 PM
In specific situations, it does demolish the NV30. AA and AF, really.

As Solomon always says, if you expected the move to a 256-bit memory bus to solve everything, you were sadly misinformed.

CaptNKILL
06-16-03, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by The Baron
In specific situations, it does demolish the NV30. AA and AF, really.

As Solomon always says, if you expected the move to a 256-bit memory bus to solve everything, you were sadly misinformed.

Yeah, but everyone misinformed US.

I too remember all the awesom reviews, as recent as last month, the reviews were amazing. Like this one (http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=1821&p=26) or this one (http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=1821&p=23).

Now that the previews are out of the way and the real reviews are here, the card isnt showing any of those really nice leads.

What the hell happened?

digitalwanderer
06-16-03, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by CaptNKILL
Yeah, but everyone misinformed US.

I too remember all the awesom reviews, as recent as last month, the reviews were amazing. Like this one (http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=1821&p=26) or this one (http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=1821&p=23).

Now that the previews are out of the way and the real reviews are here, the card isnt showing any of those really nice leads.

What the hell happened?
I think the AA actually turns on now when you turn it on in the control panel... ;)

Hellbinder
06-16-03, 12:51 PM
Do you all remember the "first, behind the doors look" of the NV35, where they claim an UNDERCLOCKED NV35 absolutely smoked the NV30?

ROLF... I had forgotten about that one!!. I remember wasnt the Nv35 supposedly clocked at like 250mhz or something and was 2x Faster than the Nv30???

Heh..

I wonder if Nvidia is ever going to stop getting away with junk like that? They put off people buying a 9700pro with all the empty hype about the Nv30... then they started leaking info about the Nv35 and many people put off buying a 9700 and 9800... Now they are ALREADY starting rumors about the Nv40 being 2x faster than the Nv35 (straight from the PR mouth of Nvidia)...

Its all becomming such an endless silly game... It would be nice if more people gave ATi the credit they deserve for the products they DELIVERED over the last 10ish months.

Now the 5900 is finally starting to show up and it is a nice card. But reviews like Firing Squads that use Custom demos are showing flat out scarry results when you dont use well known Prefab demo levels. Like even the 9700pro crushing the 5900 in Quake 3 and Serious Sam.

Whats worse is there is an updated R350 comming pretty soon that is at least 20% faster than the 5900U. Thats before the whole R420 Vs Nv40 rollercoaster comming in november.

CapsLock
06-16-03, 12:53 PM
the baron:
In specific situations, it does demolish the NV30. AA and AF, really.

Well it may be doing well against the nv30, but in the 3dvelocity review, with aa and af, it couldn't beat a 9700P, and yes that was against the ultra.

Not to mention most still agree it takes nv 6X or 8X to equal Ati's 4X.

I'm not so sure I agree with HB in the other thread, I don't think IQ difference is a silly matter. When someone buys a card like this, thats exactly what they are paying for. FPS are only significant when they effect IQ. Image IQ is really what the whole thing is about.

So I am totally with sharky and CapnKill: "what the hell happened?"

Its a year later, how could nv not be able to get back on top with all the money they could throw around? It boggles my tiny mind.

CapsLock

jAkUp
06-16-03, 12:55 PM
i originally thought i might try to get a 5900... but later i realized its just too expenisive to spend money again. i just figure i could always just leave aa and af off... since im not a huge fan of using it anyways. (except very little aa and high resolutions)

Hellbinder
06-16-03, 01:09 PM
I'm not so sure I agree with HB in the other thread, I don't think IQ difference is a silly matter. When someone buys a card like this, thats exactly what they are paying for. FPS are only significant when they effect IQ. Image IQ is really what the whole thing is about.

Hey hey now... I was jsut trying to be more fair.

When you are jamming around in an action game the little AA differences are not going to impact you much. well... I personally have become so attached to AA that *I* notice even the little things that my 9700pro doesnt Quite cover right.. or i find myself thinking.. That little angle on that roof there is a little edgy..

CapsLock
06-16-03, 01:32 PM
ok, but I thought that didn't sound like the HB I've read.

Its funny with the FS review, you'd think coming out with custom time demos that produced such shocking results that they would have been a bit more careful with the other benchmarks (IL-2 and nascar).

Caps

edit PS. I hate jaggies, especially rolling/moving ones.

saturnotaku
06-16-03, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by Hellbinder
I personally have become so attached to AA that *I* notice even the little things that my 9700pro doesnt Quite cover right.. or i find myself thinking.. That little angle on that roof there is a little edgy..

You, too? :D

I always thought NVIDI's AA quality was good, until I got my 9500...then whoa. :eek: Going back to a 5800 Ultra and it was like night and day. Now with my 9800 all is well for me in the land of FSAA. 1280x1024 with 4xAA is about my sweetspot for performance and IQ. To me, gaming doesn't get any better. ;)

john19055
06-16-03, 02:43 PM
I come close to takeing back my R9800 pro because I thought the FX5900 look like at fist it was going to be a better card,but now looking at the reviews of the FX5900 looks like the R9800pro will be the better deal,I know some of you will disagree,I always like a nvidia product better,but I think the R9800pro is the best out now.

solofly
06-16-03, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by john19055
I always like a nvidia product better,but I think the R9800pro is the best out now.

As long as the ATi drivers keep improving... (a good product without good drivers becomes a bad product or useless)

CaptNKILL
06-16-03, 03:57 PM
ok, last week I was totaly, 100% going to buy some sort of NV35 in the next month.

This week, im looking at 9700 Pros. They are probably going to be cheaper than the 5900 "value" and they have the potential to beat the 5900 and even the ultra.

I think what changed my mind, was watching a freind playing Battlefield 1942 on his 8500 with 8x anisotropic filtering at about twice the frame rate of my Geforce 4 with 4x..... I dont know HOW, but I know it looked amazing and it didnt skip AT ALL.

ATI is looking very yummy at this point.
:)

nVidi0t
06-16-03, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by CaptNKILL
ok, last week I was totaly, 100% going to buy some sort of NV35 in the next month.

This week, im looking at 9700 Pros. They are probably going to be cheaper than the 5900 "value" and they have the potential to beat the 5900 and even the ultra.

I think what changed my mind, was watching a freind playing Battlefield 1942 on his 8500 with anisotropic filtering at about twice the frame rate of my Geforce 4.

ATI is looking very yummy at this point.
:)

They do not have the potential to beat the 5900 at any point. Even the Ultra? In which dimension?

CaptNKILL
06-16-03, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by nVidi0t
They do not have the potential to beat the 5900 at any point. Even the Ultra? In which dimension?

I just read a review that showed the 9700 Pro beating the 5900 in some things.... lemme find it.

CaptNKILL
06-16-03, 04:12 PM
http://firingsquad.gamers.com/hardware/msi_geforce_fx5900-td128_review/page8.asp

http://firingsquad.gamers.com/hardware/msi_geforce_fx5900-td128_review/page9.asp

I realize that it doesnt win in all the tests, but I never said it was actually faster than the 5900 all the time.

Im just not seeing $200 worth of performance increase here. Plus the AA and AF quality ive seen is pretty nice.

Hellbinder
06-16-03, 04:19 PM
They do not have the potential to beat the 5900 at any point. Even the Ultra? In which dimension?

Um there are 2 5900 reviews posted in the last week. the Firing Squad and PC magazine that show exactly the oposite of what you are talking about... Actually there is a 3rd. 3dvelocities review shows the 9700 beating the 5900 is about half the AA+AF situations.

Then today we see in the Firingsquad review that even though the GFFX is winning the Nascar AA+AF scores their AA is *barely on*. even though its listed as 4x.

nVidi0t
06-16-03, 04:20 PM
Yeah then you see stuff like this: http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/geforcefx-5900ultra_16.html

CaptNKILL
06-16-03, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by nVidi0t
Yeah then you see stuff like this: http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/geforcefx-5900ultra_16.html

OK, so which one is correct? If the results from two different sites can show total opposites, then appearently, reviews are useless and I'll just have to buy what I feel is the best bang for the buck.

The 9700 Pro can be bought for $275 and the cheapest 5900 over around $400.... Ive been wanting a gig of RAM for my comp, so how about I buy a 9700 Pro and the ram for the price of a 5900 :)

Im not trying to be an Nvidia bashing troll, but im really not seeing any CONSISTANT advantages to spending an extra $125, let alone more than $200 for the Ultra.

Hellbinder
06-16-03, 04:47 PM
Nvidiot.. there are some obvious issues with that review

1. They use the common timedemos which we now know Nvidia has hacked for speed. Which is the whole point. Firing Sqad generated their own Demos and the ATi cards beat the Nvidia cards accross the board. Dave Bauman just did the same thing at B3D and posted nearly identical results in the forum.

2. They use 4x FSAA+16xAF for the ATi cards and only 8x for the Nvidia cards. Also they are mixing ballanced and Quality on the Nvidia card. This is easily demonstrated from the Digit-Life version of the exact same review.

3. Remember when it was discoverd last week that Nvidia is known to be detection 73 Applications in their Drivers?? Now we are begining to see what they are doiing with at least some of those. Intentionally, Artificially inflating the scores on commen well used Timedemos from common benchmarked games. REal world performance is no where near that high, and they flat out lose to the ATi cards.

Dazz
06-16-03, 05:44 PM
Ahh i think it's alright although i didn't put up my expectations as i knew it was still based on the NV30 core. The only thing i was expecting was increased bandwith and the odd feature or 2.

Sazar
06-16-03, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by jAkUp
i originally thought i might try to get a 5900... but later i realized its just too expenisive to spend money again. i just figure i could always just leave aa and af off... since im not a huge fan of using it anyways. (except very little aa and high resolutions)

m8... your card is hardly a slouch :D

slap on a coupla mufflers on your ears and there you go... no more noise botheration :)

StealthHawk
06-16-03, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by Dazz
Ahh i think it's alright although i didn't put up my expectations as i knew it was still based on the NV30 core. The only thing i was expecting was increased bandwith and the odd feature or 2.

I know I've said this before. NV35 does not fail in regards to bandwidth. NV35 has 60% more bandwidth than NV30, and its 4x FSAA scores are 50% faster than NV30's.

The reason why NV35 is sometimes slower than NV30 is because it is clocked 10% lower.

john19055
06-16-03, 08:55 PM
I agree when yhe previews came out the FX5900 looked better,but when the reviews came out the FX5900 hardly did that well against the R9700 and the R9800pro put it over the top. agree or not but most reviews had the R9800 with better I.Q.