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Hambone
07-15-09, 08:58 PM
I'm going to have to buy an SSD soon because I'm loosing my ever loving mind wanting one. What makes things worse is that I'm still on a 150GB old Raptor for my OS drive (the noisey as hell ones that let you hear how slow HDD's are).

These new Kingston SSD's are so tempting:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820139007

I was ready to order one ($239 / 128GB). Supposedly the stuttering is gone but they are slow for SSD's. It seemed like something good to grab now and then wait till faster SSD's become cheaper later on. Then I read this (very hard to find if it had TRIM):

"remember the firmware is not user upgradable and will not be able to support features like TRIM in Microsoft Windows 7"
http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1005/13/

Right now, my theory is this is the best 128GB value (I just want the price to go down $50):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231256

Maverick123w
07-15-09, 09:21 PM
I'd go with a G.Skill Falcon I believe they can be had for not far over $300.

Bman212121
07-15-09, 10:29 PM
If you want a good round up of the current drives take a look at Allyn's list from pcper.com http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=736

Revs
07-16-09, 04:29 AM
Just got a G.Skill Falcon last week. There is no better drive for the money. I'm getting 246MBps read speed testing with Sandra, way above spec. And yes, after a RaptorX the silence is very welcome. Personally, since the price/performance ratio improved hugely of late, I'd say it's probably the best upgrade you can get.

EDIT:

The Falcon then is simply an awesome bit of kit. Not only is it just as fast as the OCZ Vertex (or in fact, any other well supported 120-128GB Indilinx drive) but it also manages to cost a full 40 less, a saving of over ten percent. At 275 you’re paying 2.29/GB which while still expensive, is bordering on the affordable, especially as it’ll likely have the biggest effect on your system’s overall performance since that first dual core processor or 3D acceleration.

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/storage/2009/06/24/g-skill-falcon-128gb-review/1

Hambone
07-16-09, 06:19 AM
I'm leaning toward the G.Skil 64GB Falcon. It's $205 right now.

For a first SSD I think the size would be fine for my needs. I only install applications (no games or storage) on my OS drive (Vista x64 currently), and right now that is only taking up 50GB. Although my page file is on one of my 1T storage drives. 64GB should be enough. Although, according to that chart the 128GB versions write is 55 better. The Intel 80GB is down to $314 at Newegg though - and I know down to the fine details, it's the best.


There hasn't been anything in a very long time that's been tempting the hell out of me like this. My stomach is feeling odd like I need to drop some TUMS. I'm really trying to force myself to wait until October when Win7 is officially released.

Revs
07-16-09, 06:52 AM
If you're going for a 64Gb SSD, go for the Samsung. The 64Gb Falcon and the older Sammy are both restricted to 120MB/s write speed, but Samsung have brought out an update 64Gb SSD that isn't restricted. Also, in the UK at least, the Sammy is a little cheaper at that size.

Samdung product code: MMCRE64G5MXP-0VB

http://www.cclonline.com/product-info.asp?product_id=33319&category_id=741&manufacturer_id=0&tid=mmcre64g5mxp-0vb

Both the Samsung and the G.Skill have the newer, faster controller and a good size cache (good for small file transfer) ;)

Maverick123w
07-16-09, 10:52 AM
The Intel drives are still on top of my list.

IMO the intel's have been trumped by the falcon,vertex etc. There isn't anywhere near the performance advantage for the price.

Bman212121
07-16-09, 11:31 AM
Just got a G.Skill Falcon last week. There is no better drive for the money. I'm getting 246MBps read speed testing with Sandra, way above spec. And yes, after a RaptorX the silence is very welcome. Personally, since the price/performance ratio improved hugely of late, I'd say it's probably the best upgrade you can get.

EDIT:



http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/storage/2009/06/24/g-skill-falcon-128gb-review/1

Let us know how long it lasts. I'm looking at the reviews at Newegg right now and I'm seeing a lot of DOAs after a couple of weeks. They are from people who actually purchased the product so there should be some truth to the issue.

Toss3
07-16-09, 11:57 AM
IMO the intel's have been trumped by the falcon,vertex etc. There isn't anywhere near the performance advantage for the price.

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/storage/2009/06/24/g-skill-falcon-128gb-review/7

Still trailing by quite a bit and there's a reason why Anand still thinks the Intel drive is the best of the bunch. (http://www.anandtech.com/gadgets/showdoc.aspx?i=3590)

Revs
07-16-09, 12:03 PM
http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/storage/2009/06/24/g-skill-falcon-128gb-review/7

Still trailing by quite a bit and there's a reason why anand still thinks the Intel drive is the best of the bunch. (http://www.anandtech.com/gadgets/showdoc.aspx?i=3590)

From what I understand this was due to poor firmware which has since been updated. Might be wrong though. I've been getting higher ramdom rates than that. I'll do some testing when I get chance, but during defragmenting, for example, I get 30-40mbps. The main factor is the price, though. For speed vs cost the Sammy and the G.Skill take some beating.

Let us know how long it lasts. I'm looking at the reviews at Newegg right now and I'm seeing a lot of DOAs after a couple of weeks. They are from people who actually purchased the product so there should be some truth to the issue.

Cheers dude, I'll make sure I stay up-to-date on my backups ;)

Maverick123w
07-16-09, 01:52 PM
In that case you might want to keep an eye on the new/upcoming Intel Postville series using the 34nm NAND chips.

Haven't read up on them yet, got a good link?

CaptNKILL
07-16-09, 03:04 PM
I'll do some testing when I get chance, but during defragmenting, for example, I get 30-40mbps.

Eek... don't defrag an SSD. :o

mullet
07-16-09, 04:09 PM
So far only a news article but it's in German.

http://www.computerbase.de/news/hardware/laufwerke/2009/juli/intel_ssd-serie_postville/

Whoa thanks.

Revs
07-16-09, 07:06 PM
Eek... don't defrag an SSD. :o

What, at all? Surely it's OK every now and then, no?

EDIT: Just had a read and you're right, so cheers :). No need to defrag ever :D

Hambone
07-16-09, 08:50 PM
Newegg SSD drive quantity marker for fun:
2GB (1)
4GB (1)
8GB (4)
16GB (18)
24GB (1)
30GB (4)
32GB(33)
48GB(1)
60GB(8)
64GB(33)
80GB(3)
120GB(9)
128GB(24)
160GB(3)
192GB(1)
250GB(6)
256GB(10)
512GB(1)

Xion X2
07-16-09, 08:51 PM
Let us know how long it lasts. I'm looking at the reviews at Newegg right now and I'm seeing a lot of DOAs after a couple of weeks. They are from people who actually purchased the product so there should be some truth to the issue.

People just don't know what they are doing.

There are no moving parts in an SSD. About the only way you can break it is by defragging or indexing it constanly which causes wear-leveling.

Hambone
07-16-09, 09:54 PM
People just don't know what they are doing.

There are no moving parts in an SSD. About the only way you can break it is by defragging or indexing it constanly which causes wear-leveling.


Dude, you're nutters.

1) Wear Leveling is technique not a symptom

2) The Newegg reviews you are referring to are in reference to DOA drives and drives that failed within the first two months (that's probably 95% of those 1 egg reviews).

3) A month or two of indexing and defragging (several times a day) would come no where near close to the number of write cycles those drives can take.

4) The obvious point is there are manufacturing and component defects which seem to be causing a fairly significant number of SSD drives to fail fairly quickly into their lifespan. We're talking about new components, assembly lines and designs (so it's to be expected - Component quality, design quality, and assembly line quality).

My 2 cents anyway.

Xion X2
07-17-09, 09:15 AM
My 2 cents anyway.

Yeah, and my 2 cents is that your 2 cents is hogwash.

I'm not here to play semantics with you; I was only trying to help. Perhaps "wear-leveling" isn't the proper term. I'll just say "wear."

SSDs are very sensitive to defragging and indexing. Depending on how often you defrag or run intense benchmarks on them, you could either kill it or your SATA controller in a few weeks. It's why OCZ recommends you disable these autorun Vista features as soon as you install them. Have you ever seen Vista's defragging? It takes endless hours.

I have not seen a single individual in the several online forums that I frequent who has had issues with an SSD while taking the proper precautions stated from the manufacturer. Personally, I haven't had a single problem out of the 6 drives I have, and you likely will not either unless you're running read/write benchmarks or defragging/indexing constantly which increases wear on them as stated by the manufacturers themselves.

Perhaps the very first drives that came out had some problems (even though I have two v.1 OCZ Core series drives that have been flawless since day one,) but that is normal with every new tech and you are blowing this out of proportion to generalize them as having issues. All this requires is to pick a manufacturer who's been working them for a while (like Intel, OCZ, G.Skill, etc) , don't defrag or index, don't run constant benchmarks, don't flash your firmware left and right, and chances are you'll have no issues at all.

You should read up on the OCZ forums some before you go calling people "nuts." You're the one who's "nuts" if you let newegg reviews guide your purchases instead of consulting with technical support at the manufacturer (you know, the guys who built the drives.) Most people in the newegg reviews don't know what they're doing. Half of them can hardly type a complete sentence.

Bman212121
07-17-09, 09:35 AM
People just don't know what they are doing.

There are no moving parts in an SSD. About the only way you can break it is by defragging or indexing it constanly which causes wear-leveling.

I have not had one single problem out of the 6 drives I have, and you likely will not either unless you're running read/write benchmarks or defragging/indexing constantly which increases wear on them as stated by the manufacturers themselves. Everyone that I have spoken to, which is many, who has done the same has not had a single issue. Perhaps the very first drives that came out had some problems (even though I have two v.1 OCZ Core series drives that have been flawless since day one,) but that is normal with every new tech. All this requires is to pick a manufacturer who's been working them for a while (like Intel, OCZ, G.Skill, etc) and chances are you'll have no issues.

You should read up on the OCZ forums some before you go calling people "nuts." You're the one who's "nuts" if you let newegg reviews guide your purchases instead of consulting with technical support at the manufacturer (you know, the guys who built the drives.)

How many DOA boards have you had in the past there Xion? I'd think you know first hand that it doesn't have to be mechanical to fail. It's a new piece of hardware which means there might be QC issues that haven't been taken care of. Sure you always need to take reviews with a grain of salt, but once the evidence starts piling on from multiple users who actually bought those drives there might be a grain of truth to it.

Hambone
07-17-09, 04:32 PM
I was hoping for someone to be nuts with me Xion. :p

Good points though. Although I've had my share of DOA and 1 Month failures from Newegg over the years. I've been ordering from them since they first opened. I can't even remember how long ago that was. The draw of Newegg the first 6 months or more was that they offered free Fedex on everything (except tube monitors and heavy items - it was long before LCD's came out).

My oldest listed order from them is only from 2004 though. I guess they only go so far back.. It's dang freaky to see how much cash I've blown on parts over the years:
mushkin 512MB 184-Pin DDR SDRAM DDR 433 (PC 3500) System Memory Model 991087 - OEM
Item #: N82E16820146298 $105.00

The one thing I haven't done much work on is reading up on tweaks and settings. Is there some clear and simple guide out there for Vista and Windows 7? I think I'm going to pull the trigger tonight but I'm having trouble making up my mind.

Heinz68
07-17-09, 06:11 PM
I'm also looking for getting SSD but wont buy any till Windows 7.
I believe there is no argument about the reliability and if there was the SSD compared to the HDD is the winner.
Here is SanDisk (http://www.driveyourlaptop.com/video/ssd-vs-hdd) promotion for the SSD drives but more articles about SSD vs HDD reliability can be Googled.

If I was buying the SSD before the October release of Windows 7 I would still wait at least till next week, based on this info.
the INQURER (http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1433725/intel-ssds-launch-tuesday) is reporting the Intel's 34nm NAND SSD to launch next Tuesday, some of the EURO E-Tailers's are already listing the drive.
The DAYLYTECH (http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=15566) article about the new improved 34nm Flash says: "New SSDs should be faster, more power efficient, and smaller thanks to die shrink" some other article I did read also predict cheaper. Other manufactures will follow Intel soon and the competition will further reduce the prices.

My reason for waiting till October is this: "Windows 7 to improve on Solid State Drive (SSD) performance (http://windows7center.com/windows-7-feature/windows-7-to-improve-on-solid-state-drive-ssd-performance/)", I wonder which drive will first include the "trim" or if it could be done with firmware.
The other reasons are, it will also save my time with only one OS installation and probably few dollars.

EDIT
I just noticed slaWter also posted in this thread post #14 an article in German about the upcoming second generation Intel's SSD with the new 34nm NAND chips. The article also shows falling price for the 80 GB version and predicting more reductions in next few weeks. New drive on my short list.
http://www.computerbase.de/news/hardware/laufwerke/2009/juli/intel_ssd-serie_postville/

Hambone
07-17-09, 06:23 PM
The majority of SSD's out now have TRIM. Most of the better new versions from the original manufacturers have it. The cheap new Kingston drives do not.

Man, if a waiting until "<insert next greatist thing that's going to come out in a few months>" came out I would never be able to build a new computer :D

Heinz68
07-17-09, 06:40 PM
Read this (http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=733&type=expert&pid=14) abbout one SSD which WAS on my short list.
After speaking with a member of the team responsible for implementing TRIM in Windows 7, and upon further investigation, it appears the real issue is that Indilinx removed ATA TRIM support under 1571 / 1.30. Nothing is said about this in the release notes, so I had to poke around a bit more on the OCZ forum to find something resembling a real answer. So it appears the issue is not at the OS level, but with the Indilinx firmware. The piece over at Hot Hardware would have been using 1.10 based on the published date, but the numbers they got suggest TRIM was not working in that version either. The best TRIM gain seen in their testing was only ~10% - significantly smaller than the over 50% drop in write speeds we saw without TRIM at work. ATA TRIM is rumored to be finalized and implemented by Indilinx this month, and I will revisit and retest once it is made available.
EDIT
Also read the "Final Thoughts (http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=733&type=expert&pid=15)" in the same article
These hurdles *should* be overcome with future firmware updates and the incorporation of native TRIM into the firmware and Windows 7, but bear in mind that Samsung and Intel also plan to also push out firmware updates in support of TRIM, and their performance may also see an increase.

Man, if a waiting until "<insert next greatist thing that's going to come out in a few months>" came out I would never be able to build a new computer

October is not like "NEVER" and at least in my case I have few good reasons for waiting which I mentioned plus I'm not building new computer.

Xion X2
07-17-09, 11:18 PM
How many DOA boards have you had in the past there Xion? I'd think you know first hand that it doesn't have to be mechanical to fail. It's a new piece of hardware which means there might be QC issues that haven't been taken care of. Sure you always need to take reviews with a grain of salt, but once the evidence starts piling on from multiple users who actually bought those drives there might be a grain of truth to it.

A motherboard is a much more complex component than a SSD.

Flash tech has been around for a while, just not in sata form. The main issueswith SSD are sata controller and user related (treating it like a HDD.)

There's no denying, just as all startup tech, that they've had a few issues. But these 'issues' are exaggerated. When cared for appropriately, they are every bit as reliable as an HDD and have a longer lifespan.

Blacklash
07-18-09, 12:00 AM
Damn some SSD come with TRIM? I need to order one of these.