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Hellbinder
06-18-03, 10:35 PM
From Digit times...

http://www.digitimes.com/NewsShow/Article3.asp?datePublish=2003/06/17&pages=04&seq=17

Now ATI and Creative Technology have announced a large-scale partnership based on ATIís high-end Radeon 9800 graphics core. Starting in June, all Creative Technology graphics cards sold in the Asia-Pacific region will be ATI-based.

The company hopes to continue its relationship with Nvidia in other markets, but in the past Nvidia has cut off its chip supply to graphics card makers that joined ATIís camp. Nvidia recently notified Elsa, whose core business is high-end Nvidia-based workstation graphics cards, that it would no longer supply it with graphics chips

That is the kind of junk im talking about... Nvidia has started acting just like Intel and M$.

What are they going to end up cutting off everyone??? More and more people companies are starting to offer at least some of ATis products. I guess they think they can mantain their market share with eventually no one selling their products... :rolleyes: They better be careful. They could bully everyone before becuase there was no serious alternative. Times have changed.

To big for their Own Britches.

StealthHawk
06-18-03, 10:50 PM
The best thing for nvidia right now would be to lose a lot of market share. Then they would learn they can't get away with strong arm tactics and PR/driver deceit.

As it is, nvidia's has not lost any market share to ATI, so they feel they can continue on their "path of destruction*." nvidia needs a wake up call so it can refocus and deliver kick ass products again. If NV40 is half as good as people are saying(they said the same thing about NV30 though :rolleyes: ) then the NV3x line will just be forgotten and buried.

* because they have gotten away with it, it is not a path of destruction....YET

jAkUp
06-18-03, 11:56 PM
i think pretty soon ati and nvidia's respect from manufacturers will even out.... some systems are using atis cards now... because the faster cards are usually cheaper... such as the ati 9500... very fast, very cheap.

Skuzzy
06-19-03, 12:35 PM
What is sowed today will be reaped tomorrow.

Ok,..feeling a bit buddha like today. :D

Seriously, the next 8 months are going to be interesting. Very intersting.

Dazz
06-19-03, 01:06 PM
I was going to post this the other night but couldn't be botherd.

I would say nVIDIA is worse then Intel & M$ in a way
Intel: rufuses large discounts if company is using other brands.
MS: Bribes companies to not use other software, be in large amounts of cash or huge savings on their software.
nVIDIA: Rufuses to sell chips if the manufature uses other brands.

Quite sick in the head really, nVIDIA are making a huge mistake. They have already lost all there big partners, although others have taken their place they arn't as big as the ones they lost.

Ati is doing well as they have got decent performance while lower prices compaired in nVIDIA hence why ALL Tiwan compaies have taken them up. I kind of find it hard that nVIDIA hasn't lost any market as ATi has sold a **** load of R300 based cards.

GlowStick
06-19-03, 01:11 PM
Actually business has allways been done this way, oviously its not moraly right, but its how its done.

When the first Athlon boards came out, manufuacuers would not print their name on it because of the huge retaliation Intel would give on them, they eventualy stepped forward and admitted it was them makeing the boards all along...

Microsoft is now offering really cheep windows XP to places who also sell PC's win Linux installed on them. claiming "if pc's come with linux on them, it is hard for us to Sell Windows to the user, its unfair" so, the now offer Tiger Direct really cheep windows prices if TigerDirect will stop carrying linux preloaded PC's. If tiger direct dose that, what happens to those prices?

But those tatics work and have allways worked, if it works for nvidia they will join the ranks of ChipZilla and Micro$oft.

Compddd
06-19-03, 01:23 PM
I think its gonna backfire on them, because Chipzilla and MS make good products so they have some leverage. Right now Nvidia is making crap

GlowStick
06-19-03, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by Compddd
I think its gonna backfire on them, because Chipzilla and MS make good products so they have some leverage. Right now Nvidia is making crap

I agree that Intel has some very good products, in my opinion they did the C series on purpose to win back the support of the overclocking crowd.

But i competely disagree with M$, they spew out products that are the same so fast, and are not worth what you pay for it at all, but its just there, and you cant do anything about it.

solofly
06-19-03, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by GlowStick
But those tatics work and have allways worked, if it works for nvidia they will join the ranks of ChipZilla and Micro$oft.

They are not that far off from being there anyway. They can eat Ati for lunch and still have enough money left for a tip.

saturnotaku
06-19-03, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by GlowStick
But i competely disagree with M$, they spew out products that are the same so fast, and are not worth what you pay for it at all, but its just there, and you cant do anything about it.

But this latest stuff from NVIDIA continues the disconcerting, self-destructive path they are taking. It's like they're cutting off their nose to spite their face, and they don't seem to care.

digitalwanderer
06-19-03, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by solofly
They are not that far off from being there anyway. They can eat Ati for lunch and still have enough money left for a tip.
On paper mebbe... ;)

If they could, why haven't they? :p

Skuzzy
06-19-03, 01:55 PM
FTC would not go for it. Besides, a U.S. based company buying a Canadian company would be wrought with political issues.

solofly
06-19-03, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
On paper mebbe... ;)

If they could, why haven't they? :p

If one doesnít want to be sold there is no law to make them so. All we need is a 'for sale' sign and the deal is done...:p

Uttar
06-19-03, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by solofly
If one doesnít want to be sold there is no law to make them so. All we need is a 'for sale' sign and the deal is done...:p

Sorry, but you seem misinformed.
Companies CAN operate aggressive mergers. That means the company they're trying to buy refuses the move, and suggets to their investors not to accept the deal.
But if the investors accept it anyway, then the deal will be done anyway.

Also, I frankly could care less about nVidia refusing to give chips to people also doing business with ATI, as long as they make it clear when the companies begin using ATI chips too. Kinda annoying they didn't seem to have done that with Elsa, otherwise they'd never have done it, eh...
Still, I don't find what's SO wrong with that. I'm much more worried about the PR BS and the cheating personally.


Uttar

Pafet
06-19-03, 03:09 PM
nVidia should just accept it's back to 2nd place.
where it belongs, cause it seems they can't handle the top spot :)

I'm not saying that it's easy to come up with a great technological breakthrough (like most people here expect them to) but the recent stuff is ridiculous, both PR wise and tech wise

ricercar
06-19-03, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by solofly
If one [company] doesnít want to be sold there is no law to make them [sell].

Actually in the United States, there is such a law for publically traded companies. There's a concept of Feducary responsibility. If a company management team refuses a buyout that is financially sound, profitable, and legal, then the stockholders can sue them for financial (Feduciary) irresponsibility.

This is the basis of hostile takeovers. Take for example the currnet hostile bid by Oracle for buying PeopleSoft. When Oracle was offering $16/share--essentially market price--for Peoplesoft, Peoplesoft could ignore the bid, and not be irresponsible to shareholders. Today Oracle has offered $19 a share, a significant percentage above market value. now PeopleSoft's board is legally bound to consider the offer or the board could suffer lawsuit.

Dazz
06-19-03, 03:16 PM
I don't see why it's a problem for nVIDIA with compaines using muliple brands, why should they? They are still buying their chips anyway. This is just a stupid move.

ricercar
06-19-03, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by Pafet
it seems [NVIDIA] can't handle the top spot :)

Yeah, those five years as #1 proved NVIDIA can't handle it. I need to retroactively never have bought any GF2, GF3, and GF4, because my GeForce FX is not the uncontested performance leader of its time, the way those other products were. :p Anyone got a time machine?

Filburt
06-19-03, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by ricercar
Yeah, those five years as #1 proved NVIDIA can't handle it. I guess I need to un-buy my GF2, GF3, and GF4 now, because my GeForce FX is not the uncontested performance leader. Anyone got a time machine?

Well a time machine *would* be useful to find out just *when* nVidia's cards were getting legitimate scores, as it seems some of these "optimizations" are long-standing...

Uttar
06-19-03, 03:50 PM
Filburt: We don't need a time machine for that.

- We got the old drivers in websites archives ( I know for sure Guru3D got a LOT of them )
- We got the old boards in our legacy machines ( I got a GF2 GTS in an old PC of mine )
- We got the games which were used for benchmarking at the time in our games archives ( okay, ain't exactly MY case, because I don't even have Quake 3, but eh - loads of people got it )

As you see, if someone really wanted to discover it, he could. It's just about having the time to do it. I personally don't want to lose my time on those type of futilities.

IMO, 3DFX fans should do it to proof 3DFX was "illegaly crushed" ( LOL! Ridiculous fanboys ) by nVidia corporation. It ain't *my* job to lose my time on useless things that nobody is able to change anymore!

Ricercar:
Yeah, those five years as #1 proved NVIDIA can't handle it. I need to retroactively never have bought any GF2, GF3, and GF4, because my GeForce FX is not the uncontested performance leader of its time, the way those other products were.

Lol! I like that one :)
Yeah, I should sell my GF4 Ti4200, my GF2 GTS and my TNT2 I guess, hehe. And replace my current machine's GPU by my old Rage Pro ( I think it was a Pro, anyway... ) - now THAT's cinematic computing! :D

I personally just don't quite get all that hate against nVidia corporate practices. Most good corporations act like nVidia did there. And they're doing it for a reason: because that's what works, want it or not. Of course, if they're refuse everyone to sell their cards, it'd become annoying. But that isn't quite the case, so right now, they still can allow to do that.

Heck, if you refuse this, you might just as well become communist ( note that I didn't say anyone *was/is* communist - I'm just saying that this type of ideas *could* make you, later, become a communist ) - not that I have anything about communists, I can understand it, even though I disagree with them. But I don't want them complaining about ONE example, I want them complaining about the whole system then.

Okay, more importantly though, everybody hates communism talk, as I said, I find it much more important for the PR BS to stop. I thought it was "okay" a while ago - but it's getting worse and worse. That whole ridiculously arrogant statement to 3DVelocity summarized it all very well - and Richard Huddy's response also made it clear ATI didn't fall so low ( yet )...

Damn, I really hope this is gonna improve, I'm not hoping for miracles, but still, it was better before the NV30. Could we go back to that once the NV40 is released, please? Please? nVidia does good products ( I only say "good" because the NV2x/NV1x were really good IMO, and the NV3x is kinda okay ) - but at this rate, people are gonna be a LOT more focused on their bad PR practices.


Uttar

Pafet
06-19-03, 06:56 PM
I personally just don't quite get all that hate against nVidia corporate practices. Most good corporations act like nVidia did there. And they're doing it for a reason: because that's what works, want it or not. Of course, if they're refuse everyone to sell their cards, it'd become annoying. But that isn't quite the case, so right now, they still can allow to do that.

I never said I hate nVidia. tell you the truth, I myself don't really take a stand here. I know nothing about business, PR and engineering video cards (not yet anyhoo ;) ).
I am not trying to tell anyone how they should do their job. I believe they know more then us about that. all I know is that in the long run, if their products are good enough - i'll buy them.

StealthHawk
06-19-03, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by Uttar
Damn, I really hope this is gonna improve, I'm not hoping for miracles, but still, it was better before the NV30. Could we go back to that once the NV40 is released, please? Please? nVidia does good products ( I only say "good" because the NV2x/NV1x were really good IMO, and the NV3x is kinda okay ) - but at this rate, people are gonna be a LOT more focused on their bad PR practices.

Yes we can if nvidia stops the cheating and the PR bull**** that has happened with NV30.

reever2
06-19-03, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by Uttar

Damn, I really hope this is gonna improve, I'm not hoping for miracles, but still, it was better before the NV30. Could we go back to that once the NV40 is released, please?
Uttar

No, i remember hearing the same thing about the NV30 and i have heard the same things about the Nv35, I dont have enough patience to wait EVEN MORE, like many have not already suffered already for products which were major steps backwards for a company

bkswaney
06-20-03, 01:44 AM
Originally posted by Hellbinder
From Digit times...

http://www.digitimes.com/NewsShow/Article3.asp?datePublish=2003/06/17&pages=04&seq=17

That is the kind of junk im talking about... Nvidia has started acting just like Intel and M$.

What are they going to end up cutting off everyone??? More and more people companies are starting to offer at least some of ATis products. I guess they think they can mantain their market share with eventually no one selling their products... :rolleyes: They better be careful. They could bully everyone before becuase there was no serious alternative. Times have changed.

To big for their Own Britches.

Do u really think ati does not do under handed stuff also?
I mean come on HB. It's just dog eat dog in this old world.
Nvidia is the second microsoft. ;) "LOL"

swanlee
06-20-03, 11:09 AM
How can people sit there and still try and defend nvidia? Are you that blinded by fanboyism to not be a little concerned over the way the company has been run lately?