ATI R420: Two Times Faster Than The RADEON 9800 PRO?

[5150 Joker]

I'm taking a wait and see approach to the nv40. Once the product is out on shelves and I see concrete reviews, then I'll put some serious consideration into it. For now though it's something not even close to release and thus not worth discussing, especially since there isn't any credible information on it.

[MuFu]

:)

MuFu.

[Evildeus]

2 times faster then a 9800 SE? :afro2:

[Fotis]

It looks like ATI had the chance to take the crown and hold it for a while if they had released r400 this summer as scedualed.
If Mufu is right about Loki beeing a spring 2004 product then it looks like it will be going up against nv45.
I really hope nvidia pulls an "r300" with nv40 and get rid of all those driver hacks!! :D

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by Fotis
I really hope nvidia pulls an "r300" with nv40 and get rid of all those driver hacks!! :D

The R300 had a driver hack for 3dmark2001 when it(R300) was released :p

[B&R]

NO way it can be twice as fast 9800p with same tech. Oh wait we are in the RUMOR mill.

[Lezmaka]

Originally posted by B&R
NO way it can be twice as fast 9800p with same tech.

Overall? no
In certain situations? yes

Clock it at 500mhz, give it 35+gb/s bandwidth, maybe add PS/VS units, add/optimize who knows what else, sure seems possible to me, in certain situations.

[Uttar]

Nah, twice as fast in most situations, as Loki is, is not possible with the same tech.
But don't trust Xbit too much. They can't get their facts straight it seems - Loki is not done on the same tech, it's done on 0.13u.


Uttar

[B&R]

Originally posted by Lezmaka
Overall? no
In certain situations? yes

Clock it at 500mhz, give it 35+gb/s bandwidth, maybe add PS/VS units, add/optimize who knows what else, sure seems possible to me, in certain situations.
I dont know man.. its is all theoritical and we all know everytin changes when it comes actual benchmarks and stuff.

[Geforce4ti4200]

Originally posted by gokickrocks
a little bird told me that the nv40 is already overhyped...


If you work for ati, then ill give you credit. if you say its overhyped, then perhaps its no better than from 9700 pro to 9800 pro and it might be called a 9900 pro. like 20% faster and its probably not much more than higher clock speeds, perhaps 450 core, 450 ram?


ok heres the skinny:


9700 pro(320/310)
9800 pro(380/340)<----------not much better than a 9700 pro
9900 pro(450/450)<-------might be a little bigger difference


this is just a guess.........

[-=DVS=-]

my guess loki will be same jump as from Radeon 8500 to 9700Pro ;)

[Geforce4ti4200]

Originally posted by -=DVS=-
my guess loki will be same jump as from Radeon 8500 to 9700Pro ;)


we are talking nearly double in jump once again.......:eek:

[Evildeus]

My guess
performance from 9800 pro to loki = jump from 9700 np to 9800 pro

[Skinner]

Well I think it w'll be closer like the jump 8500->9700Pro.

[ragejg]

skinner: 8500-9700P is closer?

I disagree, as the 9700NP stands tall above the 9500/9600 crowd, and does not fall that much under the 97/9800P's perfomance area.... 9800P IMO is not much of an upgrade at all from 9700P...

8500 is in beween GF3 and ti4200, which themselves are below 9500/9500P 9600/9600P in performance...

:)

[Carbon Unit]

I installed Mech warrior III on to my system with my 5900, I found out after playing the game doesnt look much better than when it played on my GeForce 3, what I am trying to point out is that the 5900 and 9800 have more than enough power to play all the DX8 games that are out now, most of the games I am playing look better than when I was using a 4200 but not by some huge margin, the fact is that the games for the 5900 and 9800 are not even out yet, and the only DX9 bench out is Gun metal and the 5900 seems to be on top in all of those scores, the NV 40 is going to be a nice gpu, it will probably rock all the synthetic benchmarks, but will there be games that can use all that power is a big question mark at this point

[Paul]

As i've said before, even if Loki represents another 9700-esque jump, i don't think nVidia have anything to worry about.

Just think about it - The NV3x architecture is effectively broken, and it was waaaay late to market. Yet as it stands today, they're there or there abouts in terms of performance with ATi. Even without all the hacks and cheats, they're not particuarly lagging in games.

Now imagine nV bringing the NV40 to market on time, and with an architecture that actually does everything it promises (and given the experience they've gained from NV3x - NV4x isn't a huge jump technology wise - they should be able to get it working).

Am i the only one excited about how good it could well be? People talk about the 9700 blowing everything away, and it did. But people also make it sound like nVidia are nowhere to be seen - They're clearing not lagging behind ATi in terms of vision and expertise, so who's to say they're not aiming just as high as ATi in terms of performance? Or even higher?

A fully functionning NV3x architecture would have beaten anything from ATi, i'm sure. For the sake of competition, let's hope the NV4x recognises that potential.

[Hanners]

Originally posted by Paul
A fully functionning NV3x architecture would have beaten anything from ATi, i'm sure. For the sake of competition, let's hope the NV4x recognises that potential.

The thing is, NV3x is fully functioning, the problem is that nVidia made some conscious design decisions that has basically crippled the card in current conditions compared to R3x0. These decisions might set them up for an easier ride a few generations down the line (think NV50), but at the moment are actually holding them back. ATi on the other hand seem to have concentrated their resources differently, and created a card that performs much better for the feature set it was designed around. Whether that will come back to haunt them further down the line I don't know, but it's working well for them now.

If the information beginning to be thrown around is correct, this coming generation (NV40, R420) might be a similar scenario. We're already hearing about nVidia putting in very advanced features such as a PPP on one hand, but on the other we are hearing that ATi will be going with a 12x1/6x2 pipeline architecture whereas nVidia may well stick with the 8x1/4x2 layout they have now.

Of course, it's way too early to assume anything or make any real guesses as to performance, but the coming months may well give us some interesting insight as to where the design focus of the two competing companies lie.

[Geforce4ti4200]

if ati goes 6x2 itll be worse, even the 9500 pro has 8 pipelines dude. They must go 12x2

[reever2]

Originally posted by Geforce4ti4200
if ati goes 6x2 itll be worse, even the 9500 pro has 8 pipelines dude. They must go 12x2

I think when he said 12x2 / 6x2 he means either 12x2 or 16x2, 6 is way too out there to be what eh meant to say

[GlowStick]

Originally posted by reever2
I think when he said 12x2 / 6x2 he means either 12x2 or 16x2, 6 is way too out there to be what eh meant to say

I strongly dissagree with you. But the preformance diffrence between 12x2 and 6x2 would be pritty big imho.

[Geforce4ti4200]

12x2 would be the best for them, probably cheaper than 16x1 too

[Paul]

Originally posted by Hanners
If the information beginning to be thrown around is correct, this coming generation (NV40, R420) might be a similar scenario. We're already hearing about nVidia putting in very advanced features such as a PPP on one hand, but on the other we are hearing that ATi will be going with a 12x1/6x2 pipeline architecture whereas nVidia may well stick with the 8x1/4x2 layout they have now.

Actually, AFAIK, R420 is a big step towards the kind of things nVidia tried to do with NV3x, and are going to continue to do (but better) with NV4x. The difference is that ATi have further to go than nV, in terms of setting that technology up.

And nVidia aren't going with 4x2 again. That much is for certain.

I do agree, however, that the two companies clearly had different focuses for this generation. But idea-wise, they're definitely coming closer together. How those ideas are implemented is what will set them apart in the future.

[Ninja Prime]

I think you two are confused. When he says 12x1/6x2, he means it will be like the nv3X design, where it can do 12x1 in most things, but in color/z-buffer (I think...) it's only 6x2. This would be quite a bit faster than the current 8x1.

[Sazar]

Originally posted by Paul
As i've said before, even if Loki represents another 9700-esque jump, i don't think nVidia have anything to worry about.

Just think about it - The NV3x architecture is effectively broken, and it was waaaay late to market. Yet as it stands today, they're there or there abouts in terms of performance with ATi. Even without all the hacks and cheats, they're not particuarly lagging in games.

Now imagine nV bringing the NV40 to market on time, and with an architecture that actually does everything it promises (and given the experience they've gained from NV3x - NV4x isn't a huge jump technology wise - they should be able to get it working).

Am i the only one excited about how good it could well be? People talk about the 9700 blowing everything away, and it did. But people also make it sound like nVidia are nowhere to be seen - They're clearing not lagging behind ATi in terms of vision and expertise, so who's to say they're not aiming just as high as ATi in terms of performance? Or even higher?

A fully functionning NV3x architecture would have beaten anything from ATi, i'm sure. For the sake of competition, let's hope the NV4x recognises that potential.

the thing is... the nv3x architecture is buggered and is contending with architecture that has been out for a while...

ati does not have the pressure on it we would have expected from nvidia and therefore is able to work its books into a state of balance and go into the black in terms of profit/loss...

if a product given the times we have now... comes out with lackluster performance while coming out having been tweaked and what not in order to beat a product that had been out there for months... that is a bit off a major knock...

as it stands even with teh fixes (nv35) to the architecture of the nv30.. the nv30 as it SHOULD have been... apparently... is not a clear winner and ati is able to trudge along...

personally I would rather ati have gone for the jugular than merely being content with margins... but this is a business after all...

there were many people... incl myself.. and I am no expert @ gpu cores or marchitecture in any way :) who said for AGES before the nv30 dropped that the architecture was buggered...

it is not so much broken as designed poorly...

but I willl be sitting and eagerly awaiting news on the next products from both companies... coz that will ignite the forums again :)