View Full Version : Religion is tolerance?
Pages :
[
1]
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
vampireuk
06-20-03, 07:49 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3005552.stm
Whats the big god damn deal?:confused:
Makes sense to me.
I say "let him in".
Ummm. Are y'all members of the Church of England? Are y'all even Christians (in the biblical sense)? If not, what makes your value judgment any more valid than mine? (Disclaimer: I am not a member of the CoE, but to the best of my knowledge, I'm a sinner saved by the grace of God through Christ.)
What's the big deal, you ask? OK, I'll make it simple. The position of pastor (reverend, priest, whatever you want to call it) is that of a shepherd. Leadership, guidance, exhortation, etc. Moving us pilgrims along on the path of holiness.
IF homosexuality is a sin (as many Christians believe), THEN it is ridiculous to have a spiritual leader who is an unrepentant homosexual. Based on that principle, it is NO DIFFERENT from the scandal within the Catholic church (note to detractors: I am not saying that homosexuality is relatively any better/worse than pedophilia -- I am saying that both are sins in an absolute sense and should be treated as such). Or it could be gambling. Or drunkenness. Or gluttony. Or pride. Or anger. Or lust. Or hating people of a different skin tone. It doesn't really matter. Unrepentant sin (no matter its relative severity) is a problem in a spiritual leader (note: the word translated as repent is the Greek metanoia -- lit. changing one's mind). Can someone who's walking down the "wrong" path lead people down the "right" path?
Is that enough red meat? Tear away. :D
Cheers,
JND
"My own view is that there is a sound argument from scripture and tradition in favour of Christians accepting same-sex relationships, provided they are based on a personal covenant of lifelong faithfulness"
I have read no where that this is true. This is twisted logic. He is referring here to the line "love the sinner but hate the sin" Yes it is true we are to love homosexuals as we would love our selves but the sin still remains. You do not kick people out of the church for being gay but you do not have as your spiritual leader a unrepentant gay leader. This is consistant with scripture. I don't have a problem with them not wanting him to be their spiritual leader.
I'll ask an ignorant question..
why is homosexuality a sin and where is this explicitly stated in the bible... or any other religious writing ? ..
I don't mean to offend people.. I genuinely do not know this and would like to find out...
thanks :)
Originally posted by Sazar
I'll ask an ignorant question..
why is homosexuality a sin and where is this explicitly stated in the bible... or any other religious writing ? ..
I don't mean to offend people.. I genuinely do not know this and would like to find out...
thanks :)
1Cr 7:2 Nevertheless, [to avoid] fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
To clarify: homosexuals should not be pastors. What made sense to me was this: as the church becomes more like the world I expect the world to infiltrate the church. Thus, the ordination of a homosexual man into the pastorate is not newsworthy.
It makes sense.
2fast4u
06-20-03, 12:36 PM
that raises the question whether one who believes in the word of the bible should value obvious intolerance against a group of people more than logical thinking.
personally i think it comes down to one question: why the hell not?
if a homosexual man has the skills and support in the community that it takes to become a pastor, why the hell not?
disclaimer:
i do not believe in "sins" or god or whatever. please dont flame me, oki kthx
Originally posted by 2fast4u
that raises the question whether one who believes in the word of the bible should value obvious intolerance against a group of people more than logical thinking.
[/SIZE]
The question can be put the other way. Why are homosexuals intolerant of believing Christian that homosexuality is a sin.
If you believe the bible is the word of God then it stands to reason that it is the homosexual that is intolerant towards God's word.
The Baron
06-20-03, 12:52 PM
UDawg, that makes absolutely nothing resembling "sense" in any shape or form. Just an FYI. ;)
As for this--he stayed in the relationship for 27 years. That's longer than a hell of a lot of marriages. I think he would have the experience needed to run the place and be an excellent leader for his community.
Pastors aren't just people who follow the rules set forth by the Bible, and they shouldn't be. They should be a diverse group of people from all walks of life and from ALL groups that can use their experiences to help those who look to them for help.
1stFlight
06-20-03, 01:06 PM
Here's something for you to chew on
We're born in sin according to Christianity, however another question arises. Are people born Gay, or do they choose to be Gay?
Now me personally, I get excited watching naked women, looking at a naked guy does absolutely nothing for me. Therefore homesexuality it is not a choice for me. (Not that I'm complaining)
However truely gay people can't say that.
As such since you can't become Gay, you must be born Gay, now it would stand to reason that God makes someone that way from birth.
Thus it's not the homosexual that's intolerant, it's our understanding of God.
Btw, this comes to everyone from the mindset of an Agnostic.
Originally posted by UDawg71
The question can be put the other way. Why are homosexuals intolerant of believing Christian that homosexuality is a sin.
If you believe the bible is the word of God then it stands to reason that it is the homosexual that is intolerant towards God's word.
Originally posted by The Baron
UDawg, that makes absolutely nothing resembling "sense" in any shape or form. Just an FYI. ;)
As for this--he stayed in the relationship for 27 years. That's longer than a hell of a lot of marriages. I think he would have the experience needed to run the place and be an excellent leader for his community.
Pastors aren't just people who follow the rules set forth by the Bible, and they shouldn't be. They should be a diverse group of people from all walks of life and from ALL groups that can use their experiences to help those who look to them for help.
No. Pastors are elders who have proven to be God-fearing men and servants of the Body of Christ. They do not become qualified by their diverse experiences, education, or public status. Also, a pastor's main focus is this: to care for their brothers and sisters who are traveling on the Christian journey and to see that they do not stumble along to way. Their standard of leadership is God's instruction: by the Word, through prayer and by the revelation of the Holy Spirit.
I was pointing out that intolerance is a two way street. The church publicaly stated very long ago that homosexuality is a sin. Now this person wants to say I don't care what was taught or proclaimed I am going to do this. That is his intolerance towards the church.
As for this--he stayed in the relationship for 27 years. That's longer than a hell of a lot of marriages. I think he would have the experience needed to run the place and be an excellent leader for his community.
Pastors aren't just people who follow the rules set forth by the Bible, and they shouldn't be. They should be a diverse group of people from all walks of life and from ALL groups that can use their experiences to help those who look to them for help.
Originally posted by The Baron
UDawg, that makes absolutely nothing resembling "sense" in any shape or form. Just an FYI. ;)
As for this--he stayed in the relationship for 27 years. That's longer than a hell of a lot of marriages. I think he would have the experience needed to run the place and be an excellent leader for his community.
Pastors aren't just people who follow the rules set forth by the Bible, and they shouldn't be. They should be a diverse group of people from all walks of life and from ALL groups that can use their experiences to help those who look to them for help.
Why does it not make sense?
I take it you are not a believer.
If a person does not accept God's word he can be said that he is intollerant to God's word. This from the point of view that there is a God and he has a book that states his words.
2fast4u
06-20-03, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by UDawg71
The question can be put the other way. Why are homosexuals intolerant of believing Christian that homosexuality is a sin.
If you believe the bible is the word of God then it stands to reason that it is the homosexual that is intolerant towards God's word.
thats pretty fundamentalistic thinking. do you seriously live to the word of the bible as it states?
1st flight pointed it out nicely .. he has no choice in being homosexual. at least thats how i am concerned. its not considered a mental illness.
also there are christians who indeed disregard the word of the bible for that matter and practice tolerance instead. that doesnt make them less good christians than you are. also, should the bible really be applied word for word? i read that the bible also states that i can sell my daughter (i dont have one but for the sake of argument) into slave labory. :eek:
Originally posted by 1stFlight
Here's something for you to chew on
We're born in sin according to Christianity, however another question arises. Are people born Gay, or do they choose to be Gay?
Now me personally, I get excited watching naked women, looking at a naked guy does absolutely nothing for me. Therefore homesexuality it is not a choice for me. (Not that I'm complaining)
However truely gay people can't say that.
As such since you can't become Gay, you must be born Gay, now it would stand to reason that God makes someone that way from birth.
Thus it's not the homosexual that's intolerant, it's our understanding of God.
Btw, this comes to everyone from the mindset of an Agnostic.
Actually this is a very good question but it is answerd easily.
They both are sins of the same caliber. That is being born homosexual is not a sin. Commiting a homosexual act is the sin even the thought is a sin. Having sex with a woman out of marriage is a sin. Thinking about having sex with any woman other than your wife is also a sin. So you see it isn't the tendancies you are born with that make you a sinner but the actions you committe.
Yes you are right we are born in sin and through Christ we are liberated
Originally posted by 2fast4u
thats pretty fundamentalistic thinking. do you seriously live to the word of the bible as it states?
1st flight pointed it out nicely .. he has no choice in being homosexual. at least thats how i am concerned. its not considered a mental illness.
also there are christians who indeed disregard the word of the bible for that matter and practice tolerance instead. that doesnt make them less good christians than you are. also, should the bible really be applied word for word? i read that the bible also states that i can sell my daughter (i dont have one but for the sake of argument) into slave labory. :eek:
Yes I try as best as I can but as you see from my poor actions even in this forum I constantly fail.
There is a old saying that goes like this "You don't have to have perfect belief but perfect faith." This means we have doubt in our self and our beliefes but we still have faith in God. As far as applying the bible word for word, it isn't praticle. The bible also says obey the government in which you are born. This does not mean obey no matter what it dictates. Example: You said the bible says you can sell your daughter into slaver. This is in the context of that time period and does not apply today since slavery is illegal. Hope that answers your question. Also on the note of slavery in the bible. It does not per se say that slavery is good but it states that if you are a slave then treat your master as you would your Lord. This makes God to see joy in you life even in a horrible situation and you will be rewarded for your suffering. It is also a lesson on obeying the Lord as our master.
1stFlight
06-20-03, 02:33 PM
Being gay no more a "tendancy" than being straight is.....
Being born in sin (which I wholly don't believe but that's another matter) is one thing, but being born unable to live by God's word is a different matter.
To be blunt, I've known gay guys who could get it up for some women who were very good in bed. How are they supposed to take a wife??
Originally posted by UDawg71
Actually this is a very good question but it is answerd easily.
They both are sins of the same caliber. That is being born homosexual is not a sin. Commiting a homosexual act is the sin even the thought is a sin. Having sex with a woman out of marriage is a sin. Thinking about having sex with any woman other than your wife is also a sin. So you see it isn't the tendancies you are born with that make you a sinner but the actions you committe.
Yes you are right we are born in sin and through Christ we are liberated
Originally posted by 2fast4u
thats pretty fundamentalistic thinking. do you seriously live to the word of the bible as it states?
1st flight pointed it out nicely .. he has no choice in being homosexual. at least thats how i am concerned. its not considered a mental illness.
also there are christians who indeed disregard the word of the bible for that matter and practice tolerance instead. that doesnt make them less good christians than you are. also, should the bible really be applied word for word? i read that the bible also states that i can sell my daughter (i dont have one but for the sake of argument) into slave labory. :eek:
The "gospel" is that God has paved the way for man's restoration. Not through the Jewish law or any other list of do's and dont's but through faith in Christ's death on the cross.
Maybe you've heard this before?:angel2:
Originally posted by 1stFlight
Being gay no more a "tendancy" than being straight is.....
Being born in sin (which I wholly don't believe but that's another matter) is one thing, but being born unable to live by God's word is a different matter.
To be blunt, I've known gay guys who could get it up for some women who were very good in bed. How are they supposed to take a wife??
Why are they unable to live by God's law? So being gay omits one from God's law. This doesn't make any sense. If you don't believe in the bible as God's word the fine don't but don't say you are a Christian and only believe that which fits your situation. Why is it that gay Christians always get a pass on this but straight Christians are blasted for failing to follow any part of the bible?
To be blunt, I've known gay guys who could get it up for some women who were very good in bed. How are they supposed to take a wife??
I don't have the answer as to how or why some people are gay. I do know that engaging in that act is a sin. Life isn't fair but God is. BTW who ever said that God made that person a homosexual?
Originally posted by 1stFlight
Being gay no more a "tendancy" than being straight is.....
Being born in sin (which I wholly don't believe but that's another matter) is one thing, but being born unable to live by God's word is a different matter.
To be blunt, I've known gay guys who could get it up for some women who were very good in bed. How are they supposed to take a wife??
You would not exist if your grandfather had died as a child because you were "in" him. The same is true if Adam had died before having children: you would not exist because you were "in" him. Because you were in him (as all men were) you were born with the sin nature.
And in regard to the sin nature: No man is able to please God unless he is first transformed by God. "Who can keep the law?" No one. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
It is one thing to mock the work of God and claim a leadership status among those who have been called out of this world and into God's kingdom ("church") it's another to confess ("agree with God") your sin of homosexuality and accept your created purpose in life. If one loves God they will not continue in sin.
1stFlight
06-20-03, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by UDawg71
Why are they unable to live by God's law? So being gay omits one from God's law. This doesn't make any sense. If you don't believe in the bible as God's word the fine don't but don't say you are a Christian and only believe that which fits your situation. Why is it that gay Christians always get a pass on this but straight Christians are blasted for failing to follow any part of the bible?
edit: If being straight were a sin, and homosexuality was the "true" path, could you comfortabely marry a male, and take him as your spouse?
Read below
I don't have the answer as to how or why some people are gay. I do know that engaging in that act is a sin. Life isn't fair but God is. BTW who ever said that God made that person a homosexual?
I'll restate my arguement using things most Christians believe (correct me at any point)
All children are born by the blessing of God
All of us are born in sin
God knew you before you were born
Good so far, okay lets continue
Homosexuality is not a choice, no more than Hetrosexuality is. You are what you are.
You are what you're born as
God made homosexuals.
EDIT2: I should mention that although I have no problem with homosexuals in any capacity, I don't believe this person should be a Pastor without fullfilling Church demands. Even if that requires him to admit he lives in sin. Being a Church leader is incompatible with flagrantly violating Church laws -- of course they also say women can't lead men, so what can I say? *shrugs*
And people wonder why I'm Agnostic.
God made homosexuals.
God did not create homosexuals just as God did not create the devil.
of course they also say women can't lead men, so what can I say? *shrugs*
I don't know where in the bible it says this. We have women pastors at our church. This more relivant to a time period when it was a man's world. I see no reason why a woman can't lead in a church.
PsychoSy
06-20-03, 03:32 PM
The crux of this matter is the Christians who are against this pastor are ticked that he has no regets of his 27-year relationship with a man. His audience desperately wants him to show them some degree of remorse because they themselves believe that Homosexuality is a sin.
It's a good thing I haven't followed in my great-grandfather's footsteps by becoming a preacher because my opinion on this matter would make headlines. In fact, it would give "The Inconsistant Holy Trinity" (Falwell, Roberts, and Robertson) a god damned stroke. :p
Anyway, if I were this gay pastor, of course, the Christians in the audience would be bellowing, "But you've lived in SIN and continue to live in SIN and blaspheme everything the Bible says about being and living in sin without any repentance...and you're man of the cloth" because they allready are.
My response? I'd single one of them out!
"Excuse me sir, but are you married?"
"Yes, I've been married to my wife for 30 years!"
"In those 30 years, have you two ever had sex during her menstrual cycle!"
"I BEG YOUR PARDON?!?!?"
"Son, God did not suddenly strike you deaf. Now, answer the question - In those 30 years of glorius, Lord Abiding marriage....Have you ever played in the mud?!?" :naughty:
".....yes...."
"How many times?"
"Well...whenever one of both of us got too horny to control ourselves."
"But, you agree that such an act is a sin, correct?"
"Yeah, cuz The Bible says so..."
"Okay, now - has your wife been thru menopause yet? Does she still have menstrual cycles?"
"Yeah, she's only in her early thirties!"
"Alright - Do you still play in the mud?" :naughty:
"YES!! YES!!! SOMETIMES, WE JUST CAN'T HELP IT!! WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH YOU BEING A GAY PASTOR, DAMMIT?!?!?!"
"Everything, pal - If you two can play in your mud without regret, remorse, etc., then we fags can play in ours!!!"
The moral of this disgusting post of mine is - Romans 14:4!
Look it up! :angel:
Originally posted by PsychoSy
The crux of this matter is the Christians who are against this pastor are ticked that he has no regets of his 27-year relationship with a man. His audience desperately wants him to show them some degree of remorse because they themselves believe that Homosexuality is a sin.
It's a good thing I haven't followed in my great-grandfather's footsteps by becoming a preacher because my opinion on this matter would make headlines. In fact, it would give "The Inconsistant Holy Trinity" (Falwell, Roberts, and Robertson) a god damned stroke. :p
Anyway, if I were this gay pastor, of course, the Christians in the audience would be bellowing, "But you've lived in SIN and continue to live in SIN and blaspheme everything the Bible says about being and living in sin without any repentance...and you're man of the cloth" because they allready are.
My response? I'd single one of them out!
"Excuse me sir, but are you married?"
"Yes, I've been married to my wife for 30 years!"
"In those 30 years, have you two ever had sex during her menstrual cycle!"
"I BEG YOUR PARDON?!?!?"
"Son, God did not suddenly strike you deaf. Now, answer the question - In those 30 years of glorius, Lord Abiding marriage....Have you ever played in the mud?!?" :naughty:
".....yes...."
"How many times?"
"Well...whenever one of both of us got too horny to control ourselves."
"But, you agree that such an act is a sin, correct?"
"Yeah, cuz The Bible says so..."
"Okay, now - has your wife been thru menopause yet? Does she still have menstrual cycles?"
"Yeah, she's only in her early thirties!"
"Alright - Do you still play in the mud?" :naughty:
"YES!! YES!!! SOMETIMES, WE JUST CAN'T HELP IT!! WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH YOU BEING A GAY PASTOR, DAMMIT?!?!?!"
"Everything, pal - If you two can play in your mud without regret, remorse, etc., then we fags can play in ours!!!"
The moral of this disgusting post of mine is - Romans 14:4!
Look it up! :angel:
The issue is not whether or not any one in the church has sinned and repented. The question is whether the pastor in quesion should be because he is nonrepented. What you did was dodge the issue and incriminate every one. That in ist self show a lack of ability to lead.
Romans 14:4
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Is this what you are refering to? :confused:
The church is well with in its rights to judge who can be a pastor.
1stFlight
06-20-03, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by UDawg71
God did not create homosexuals just as God did not create the devil.
Actually he did, as he created all the Angels -- unless you don't believe that part.
Btw, by what rationale did you arrive at that conclusion?
I don't know where in the bible it says this. We have women pastors at our church. This more relivant to a time period when it was a man's world. I see no reason why a woman can't lead in a church.
No every chuch believes it, if yours doesn't then I'll strike it from the arguement. Some chuches believe women cannot be leaders of men.
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.