PDA

View Full Version : Why OnLive Can't Possibly Work


Pages : [1] 2

Noriega
09-04-09, 09:49 AM
Some nice article

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/gdc-why-onlive-cant-possibly-work-article?page=1

Sean_W
09-04-09, 09:55 AM
The main thing I don't like about this sort of thing is, they take ownership away from you.

You don't own your games, don't own any hardware. This is effectively like having a online arcade and putting money in a virtual coin slot. I want to play on my machine, not someone else's.

Badboy_12345
09-04-09, 10:12 AM
The main thing I don't like about this sort of thing is, they take ownership away from you.

You don't own your games, don't own any hardware. This is effectively like having a online arcade and putting money in a virtual coin slot. I want to play on my machine, not someone else's.

You dont own any game you buy through steam either.
They can when they like just shut down your account and all your games are gone forever.

nekrosoft13
09-04-09, 10:27 AM
latency will kill the onlive dream (nightmare)

input has to travel miles to their servers, then game has to be rendered and encoded, and send back to screen.

Noriega
09-04-09, 10:36 AM
The main thing I don't like about this sort of thing is, they take ownership away from you.

You don't own your games, don't own any hardware. This is effectively like having a online arcade and putting money in a virtual coin slot. I want to play on my machine, not someone else's.

True. Games developers and OnLive owners can do whatever they want and put big prices on everything just like consoles are fu**up with all those DLC for cash.

ATi
09-04-09, 11:17 AM
The main thing I don't like about this sort of thing is, they take ownership away from you.

You don't own your games, don't own any hardware. This is effectively like having a online arcade and putting money in a virtual coin slot. I want to play on my machine, not someone else's.
Yeah I hope they FAIL

If onlive go's offline when your playing what happens?lol

newparad1gm
09-04-09, 11:39 AM
Also, in order to decode a compressed 720p video stream and then display it to the screen at a decent framerate without slowdown or frame skipping, you're going to still need some decent hardware. Its not like you can buy a $200 netbook and be able to use OnLive, unless they offer a lower resolution video stream.

I can see this succeeding if they promote their stand alone platform more and treat it like a console, that is after they get rid of the almighty latency and bandwidth problem.

ViN86
09-04-09, 11:46 AM
Anyone see the video in the link in the OP?

It compares Burnout Paradise souce to a 5Mbps (they said MBps, but that would be about a 50Mbit connection, which most people only have 10-15 max., I think it was a typo) encoded video output and it looks pretty bad compared to the source video.

ATi
09-04-09, 11:55 AM
Also, in order to decode a compressed 720p video stream and then display it to the screen at a decent framerate without slowdown or frame skipping, you're going to still need some decent hardware. Its not like you can buy a $200 netbook and be able to use OnLive, unless they offer a lower resolution video stream.

I can see this succeeding if they promote their stand alone platform more and treat it like a console, that is after they get rid of the almighty latency and bandwidth problem.
the onlive guy said "all you need is a TV and broadband"

jolle
09-04-09, 05:35 PM
The main thing I don't like about this sort of thing is, they take ownership away from you.

You don't own your games, don't own any hardware. This is effectively like having a online arcade and putting money in a virtual coin slot. I want to play on my machine, not someone else's.
Well, you do own YOUR games, however the games on the service arent yours.
Its like cable TV or whathaveyou, you subscibe and get access to something, but you dont own the stuff they show you on TV.
I dont have much issue with THAT really, MOST games I play I play once and tend to just have them on the shelf (or steam list). not counting online stuff like Tf2, L4d, mmos (which are basicly just as useless if I dont pay the subscription though) ofcource.

the idea of subscribing to a library isnt all that bad though, say if steam had a option to subscribe to their entire catalog for example, I often play with friends and the other day we decided to try out The Haunted mod, but only 3 of us acctually had UT3.
There are a whole bunch of games we havent played cause not everyone of us want to shell out for a game we might not play that much if it doesnt turn out all that good.
but if we all had access to the same library, that wouldnt be an issue for example.
Im more sceptical about the acctual usability of this entire thing, streaming the framebuffer and all that.

I wouldnt go for this myself, and I as many other share the view that the claims of unnoticable latency are highly unlikely, atleast for those not living in the general area of a server.. and even then..
However well it works, Ill be sticking with my PC and buying my games, since I use it for tons of other stuff aswell.

At first this all stunk of scam, but with the beta going up soon maybe they have something.
I guess weŽll see how that all turns out, but it still seems pretty suspicious.

rudedog
09-04-09, 05:46 PM
What's going to happen to my local node? It's already congested, now all the kids will be trading in their X360's for one of these things.

They better be working a deal with the broadband providers. If this does get over the latency issues, they better work on the bandwidth and capacity issues or this is going to turn into something like running an iPhone on the AT&T network here in the states.

bob saget
09-04-09, 05:47 PM
You dont own any game you buy through steam either.

They can when they like just shut down your account and all your games are gone forever.

Yea you do. You get a receipt when you buy them. Provided you follow the rules, you have rights to the game you paid for.

NarcissistZero
09-04-09, 11:04 PM
Yea you do. You get a receipt when you buy them. Provided you follow the rules, you have rights to the game you paid for.

You don't own them... you license them, you add them to your service, but you do not own anything. They can be taken away from you at a moments notice... a friend of mine had his account diabled because he took advantage of a store screw up, now he lost all his games. Valve has complete control over your purchases, not you.

With a boxed copy, the EULA can say whatever it wants, you own a copy of the game, no one can take it from you, and courts have always backed that up. On Steam you are simply paying for a service which can be terminated at any time.

Kaguya
09-04-09, 11:54 PM
You don't own them... you license them, you add them to your service, but you do not own anything. They can be taken away from you at a moments notice... a friend of mine had his account diabled because he took advantage of a store screw up, now he lost all his games. Valve has complete control over your purchases, not you.

With a boxed copy, the EULA can say whatever it wants, you own a copy of the game, no one can take it from you, and courts have always backed that up. On Steam you are simply paying for a service which can be terminated at any time.

That's mostly true, except that there are lots of activation schemes that can make your digital 'bought' games just as useless and easily removed from your use as a game on Steam (and I'm not even talking about MMOs, which are another kettle of fish all together). And don't forget other download services such as D2D and Impulse, all which have the ability to cancel your CD keys or have limited install limits which require you to ask them for 'more' should you need them.

Plus, Steam has riders in their EULA which explicitly state they reserve the right to provide single-downloadable versions of your purchases (ie that don't require Steam to run) if 'they' cancel your account (however they do not have to). I'm sure that rider is in there for the time when/if Steam goes out of business, so people can retain their libraries.

NarcissistZero
09-04-09, 11:59 PM
That's mostly true, except that there are lots of activation schemes that can make your digital 'bought' games just as useless and easily removed from your use as a game on Steam (and I'm not even talking about MMOs, which are another kettle of fish all together).

MMOs can probably get away with it as the game is sold with the sole intent of online play, and that is understood completely by the consumer. A game like Mass Effect though, despite what SecuROM does and everything I bet if anyone took them to court on it, EA would have to remove the requirement. Who is going to pay millions going against EA on such a thing though? And besides, EA does provide further unlocks when you contact them.

Even if I can't ever again activate Mass Effect, there are ways around that, and I would never be prosecuted for utilizing those methods when I own a boxed copy of the game. Steam (and others) that is not the case...

bob saget
09-05-09, 12:45 AM
They can be taken away from you at a moments notice...

you mean like when you cheat in a game or something, and it blocks your account?

a friend of mine had his account diabled because he took advantage of a store screw up, now he lost all his games. Valve has complete control over your purchases, not you.
what your friend took advantage of, would that be considered "illegal" in the "physical" world?


With a boxed copy, the EULA can say whatever it wants, you own a copy of the game, no one can take it from you, and courts have always backed that up. On Steam you are simply paying for a service which can be terminated at any time.

i am not sure what you mean by "terminated at any time". If steam bosses woke up tomorrow and decided to pull the plug on the whole steam servers/network, would they not have a lawsuit on their hands? What i was thinking is they gotta have a reason for shutting someone's account down. They cant do it for kicks.

NarcissistZero
09-05-09, 01:09 AM
what your friend took advantage of, would that be considered "illegal" in the "physical" world?

If you took a $50 game up to the cash register at Gamestop and it rang up $5, and you made it out of the store at that price, no one is going to come to your house later, take the game back, then also take all your other games too for good measure.

It may me immoral on some level, but it isn't illegal. If they just took that one game back I might not mind it as much, but his whole account?

i am not sure what you mean by "terminated at any time". If steam bosses woke up tomorrow and decided to pull the plug on the whole steam servers/network, would they not have a lawsuit on their hands? What i was thinking is they gotta have a reason for shutting someone's account down. They cant do it for kicks.

What would you sue them for? It says right in the terms of service you are not buying any games, you are paying to add them to your service, and that your service can be terminated at any time for any reason. If you bought the game at a store and own a physical copy, the courts have shown you now own the product, but an online service offers no such legal protection.

bob saget
09-05-09, 02:47 AM
Gotcha. I didnt know any of this sh*t.

NarcissistZero
09-05-09, 02:51 AM
It's important to note that it is within Valve's best interests to never do most of this, as it would cause people to run away from Steam in mass numbers. The real concern is if Valve ever closes or shuts down Steam for any reason, and that is not likely to happen anytime soon.

My friend is fighting to get is account back with support and he may do so in the end, I am not sure.

I am just saying the incident kind of opened my eyes to how little control you have in Steam over your "purchases." I have been buying retail for a few weeks now and will continue to do so for the time being.

Sean_W
09-05-09, 05:32 AM
It's important to note that it is within Valve's best interests to never do most of this, as it would cause people to run away from Steam in mass numbers. The real concern is if Valve ever closes or shuts down Steam for any reason, and that is not likely to happen anytime soon.

My friend is fighting to get is account back with support and he may do so in the end, I am not sure.

I am just saying the incident kind of opened my eyes to how little control you have in Steam over your "purchases." I have been buying retail for a few weeks now and will continue to do so for the time being.

Exactly. This is the down side to it and one reason why I've hesitated, ownership and rights are important to me

Kaguya
09-05-09, 10:16 AM
Even if I can't ever again activate Mass Effect, there are ways around that, and I would never be prosecuted for utilizing those methods when I own a boxed copy of the game. Steam (and others) that is not the case...

A lot of the same techniques can be used on Steam to access your singleplayer games (multiplayer you're out of luck regardless if your CD Key is revoked). Anyway, it's no big deal either way, as has been stated we have never 'owned' our software, we license it, and regardless of how we get it there are ways for the proprietary copyright owner to revoke our license at anytime. Obviously it's easier to breach the contract with software that does not 'activate'...

As for the original topic. While I agree that I think OnLive will fail, I don't see why we should be upset if it succeeds. It'll never crush traditional gaming methods and more people playing and paying for PC games can only be a good thing. Also, depending on pricing, it could actually encourage people to go out and buy games (similar to how people will watch a season of a TV show and then buy the DVD collection). No reason to be upset at their method of distribution - if people will pay for it, more power to them.

NarcissistZero
09-05-09, 04:18 PM
A lot of the same techniques can be used on Steam to access your singleplayer games (multiplayer you're out of luck regardless if your CD Key is revoked). Anyway, it's no big deal either way, as has been stated we have never 'owned' our software, we license it, and regardless of how we get it there are ways for the proprietary copyright owner to revoke our license at anytime. Obviously it's easier to breach the contract with software that does not 'activate'...

Well, despite what EULAs say, courts seem to think a counter transaction and physical product means ownership. Even if it doesn't, as you say, it is easier to do what needs to be done with a physical copy.

With Steam the whole thing is designed as a service and I doubt courts would do anything about your account being disabled... and while there are ways around Steam, from what I have heard, I know they are more a pain than a simple fixed exe download.

I think you know all that, I am just summarizing. For me, it has reached a point where my concern has caused me to mostly buy retail. It depends on the person and their concerns though, obviously... most people probably never play a game again after it's release year.

XDanger
09-05-09, 08:01 PM
The Japanese have fast internets, Don't they have a system like this at all?

Would be the perfect place to test the system out first.

our networks aren't ready yet

Come back in 2012.

Atomizer
09-05-09, 09:04 PM
Not sure if its been mentioned, but that article was posted in March, and there was a huge debate in the comments which ended in April, about how OnLive would be in beta in a couple of months and some people believed it truely would work because the people at OnLive said so.
Being its now 6 months later, I have not heard of any OnLive beta, anyone know if they are in beta?
If not, kind of shows how the nay-sayers(myself included) were right.
Honestly though, most people focused on the compression and streaming of the video, but imo thats not what would make or break something like OnLive, we have streaming video, the real, unbreakable problem, is input latency.
I suggest to anyone who is still a believer, grab a copy of the original Quake, use glquake or winquake, get a local friend to host a server from his house(within 50-100km), and try to play deathmatch, you will notice lag present where newer games dont have any noticable lag.
The reason is because the server and clients must sync everything, the clients do not move until the server gets the move request and sends the "you have moved" message back, there is no client side prediction which is present in newer games(even quakeworld has prediction).
Now imagine a server running the game, more then 100km away, you send your input request..... there is limited prediction that can be had with pure input, as opposed to the client knowing all about the game thats running, because its running locally on your machine, so it can render the movement on your screen almost instantly, while at the same time sending the movement information to the server, if there is excessive packetloss, the server wont recieve all your movement information, thus you appear in a different spot on the server, then when the server finally updates the client position, you appear to "rubberband" back a few steps.
The only way for this to really be plausable, input wise, is to have fibre optic cabling between your computer, and the server you're connected to, but even that isnt going to get rid of the input lag completely, as it will always take at least a couple of ms to travel any great distance(though at that point it would be doable).
In order to cause no noticable input lag, within 33ms(to maintain a frame rate of 30 per second), your computer needs to send the input to the server, the server takes in the input, updates the game, renders a new frame, compresses that frame, then streams it back to the client.
Considering, with the game running entirely on my computer, the packetflow between a single client and a server of most multiplayer games is about 5KB/sec(HL2 I believe used about 2-4KB/sec), with a ping time of over 50ms, I see no way that using 1.5mbit or 5mbit is gonna cause that ping to drop, which is going to fail to maintain even 30FPS.

And thats not even taking into account that I get over 300ms in games like WoW, due to server distance

nekrosoft13
09-05-09, 09:13 PM
And thats not even taking into account that I get over 300ms in games like WoW, due to server distance

yes, but that is just network lag, on top of that you would have input lag, since picture wouldn't be rendered on your own machine.