PDA

View Full Version : This video card crap is driving me nuts...


Pages : [1] 2 3

CaptNKILL
06-25-03, 09:29 PM
Ive been relatively quiet about this whole Nvidia vs. ATI battle until now.

Ive been researching like mad lately because I plan on buying a new video card once I get some money (by fall). After the whole NV30 fiasco, I was starting to look toward ATI a little bit. When the NV35 hit it was great, but a week later the "real" reviews hit the net and all of the sudden, I really dont want an NVidia card.

So... Ive been drooling over a Radeon 9700 Pro or 9800 Non-Pro as my next upgrade. The superior AF\AA speed and quality and the VERY attractive price is what really got my attention. So whats the problem? I just decided to visit Rage3d (only been there once or twice before today) and I checked out the forums...
HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!:eek: :eek:

I had no idea that the Radeons *STILL* have so many problems! I mean, its rediculous!! Go to Rage3d and look around in various forums. Its not like this place where you see a few odd people running into FIXABLE problems, there are HUNDREDS of people having problems that no one can solve! Some are really serious too! The last thing I want is to spend my money on a amazing card that DOESN'T WORK!!!!!!!!!

I realize that not everyone has these problems, but the problems that people do have are inexcusable(?). Missing textures in games, severe stuttering (which cant be fixed), Windows registry corruption, blue screens..... my god! I honestly dont remember the last time that Nvidia put me through anything like that. And the last SEVERE problem I can think of was the Infinite loop error, but that must have been solved a while ago because I dont even remember what it is!

Im having trouble deciding:
ATI 9700 Pro or 9800 Non-Pro= Awesome image quality(AA\AF). Awesome performance. Great prices. Potential for pure hardware hell.

Nvidia 5600 Ultra or 5800 (the best I can afford)= Below average image quality(AA\AF). Good performance. High prices. Very stable\familiar drivers and software.

My current Geforce 4 Ti 4400 (on RMA at the moment)= Below Average image quality(AA\AF). Decent performance. FREE. Very stable\familiar drivers and software.

Why cant someone make a card that both WORKS OFTEN and WORKS WELL?

jimmyjames123
06-25-03, 09:35 PM
What gave you the idea that the 5600 FX Ultra and 5800 FX Ultra have "below average" image quality? That is simply not true. Using the current Detonator FX drivers, they look very nice during gameplay, and things should only get better with driver revisions.

Naturally, the longer you wait the better deal you will get.

CaptNKILL
06-25-03, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by jimmyjames123
What gave you the idea that the 5600 FX Ultra and 5800 FX Ultra have "below average" image quality? That is simply not true. Using the current Detonator FX drivers, they look very nice during gameplay, and things should only get better with driver revisions.

I knew I would have to explain this....

Notice I said (AF\AA). What I meant is, that the AA and AF quality\performance just plain SUCKS when compaired to ATIs. There really isnt any other way to put it.

digitalwanderer
06-25-03, 09:47 PM
I honestly haven't had any issues with my 9700 Pro in any games I've played on it with the exception of the cold-boot problem. (Which I can easily forgive it being an engineering sample and free and all. :thumbsup: )

I'm not saying that other people aren't having some legitimate issues, but there are an arwful lot more people having good experiences with their 9700/9800s than are having problems. :cool:

CherryPopper
06-25-03, 10:03 PM
We'll I can only speak from personal experience. I just recently upgraded from a GeForce 3 Ti 500 to the new Raddy 9800 256 Meg baby and i can say without hesitation that my transition has been very smooth. Granted i dont play a HUGE amount of games like some people (UT2003 is definately my game of choice) and i tend to like the newer titles but I have only experienced significant improvents in every aspect of both my 2D ad 3D Pc experience.. gaming and otherwise.

I also luv the ATI DVD player because it has this cool transparent window feature where you can make the movie overlay the desktop and bring other application windows in front of it and they become partly transparent so you still see the DVD playing right through them.

I have had a few issues: Serious Sam 2 initially was giving me problems until i uninstalled it and re-installed it, then ran it in safe-mode on the first run and since then it has been fine. I suspect it was still looking for my Geforce card. The 3.4 cats kept making some text file called pollog.txt in my C: directory on every boot-up which i found annoying but that was removed with the 3.5's ..:) (i've noticed a failrly significant improvement in IQ in general with the 9800, particularly with the newer 3.5's)

I've also looked at the official 3.5 cat sticky on Rage3D and I'm amazed at some of the issues these guys are reporting. For me the card has been smooth and stable, and has overclocked from 380 to 450 core w/o breakin much of a sweat. I dunno.... for me i think if you have a good motherboard, power supply etc and know how to use your control panel to add/remove old and newer drivers you should have very few issues with a 97/9800 board. ;)

CaptNKILL
06-25-03, 10:16 PM
I appreciate the input guys... ive been reading a bit more and with the help of your comments im being swayed back toward ATI.

The capabilities of the 9700 Pro and 9800 NP just blow away anything Nvidia has to offer for a similar price... actually, Nvidia doesnt even HAVE a product to fill that price line! The 5800s arent being produced anymore! I would go for the $200 range, but my current card is still good enough to make those cards not worth it... heck, the 5600 Ultra loses to the 4600 (a tiny bit faster than my 4400) in some tests. Id say that that ISNT worth $220 :p

I think Nvidia would be in a much better position right now if they lowered all of their products by one price point.
5900 Ultra 256Mb - $400
5900 - $300
5900 Value (whenever that comes out) - $200
5600 Ultra - $150

Then Id go Nvidia. As of right now, all they have going for them is reliability... and thats not a very good reason to tack $100 on to the price :rolleyes:

Behemoth
06-25-03, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by CaptNKILL
I knew I would have to explain this....

Notice I said (AF\AA). What I meant is, that the AA and AF quality\performance just plain SUCKS when compaired to ATIs. There really isnt any other way to put it.
AF is very good on nvidia, at least some reviewers and me would think they are better than ati's AF.

CaptNKILL
06-25-03, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by Behemoth
AF is very good on nvidia, at least some reviewers and me would think they are better than ati's AF.

Yeah but the performance isnt.

I guess what I should have said was:

Nvidias cards dont run as fast when they look as good as ATIs. Plus they are more expensive. But they have less problems.

And im not talking about ANY cards other than the 5600 Ultra and the 5800 (which shoudlnt even count because its been discontinued). If Nvidia sold a card that cost around $300 right now, Id be talking about that too. But right now, the 5800 and the 5600U are the closest things.

See, I plan on spending ABOUT $250 on a card in a couple months. The 9800NP will probably be in that price range by then(they can already be bought for around $290!), so thats what im compairing everything else to.

jimmyjames123
06-25-03, 10:43 PM
The FX Ultra certainly look good in this picture:

http://www17.tomshardware.com/column/20030624/nv_cheating-06.html

Also, image quality and performance have improved notably with the new 5600 FX Ultra's and the current drivers. Of course, price is another issue, but wait a couple of months and things will hopefully get more reasonable from NVIDIA.

By the way, the 9700Pro is being discontinued too.

saturnotaku
06-25-03, 10:50 PM
I don't regret getting this 9800 Pro at all. With my new monitor that has a DVI output coming in next week, I should be experiencing some pure gaming bliss. R3xx based cards are supposedly incredible when you have them connected to the DVI ports.

Behemoth
06-25-03, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by CaptNKILL
Yeah but the performance isnt.

I guess what I should have said was:

Nvidias cards dont run as fast when they look as good as ATIs. Plus they are more expensive. But they have less problems.

And im not talking about ANY cards other than the 5600 Ultra and the 5800 (which shoudlnt even count because its been discontinued). If Nvidia sold a card that cost around $300 right now, Id be talking about that too. But right now, the 5800 and the 5600U are the closest things.

See, I plan on spending ABOUT $250 on a card in a couple months. The 9800NP will probably be in that price range by then(they can already be bought for around $290!), so thats what im compairing everything else to.
which reviews you have been checking? AF performance is very good too on nvidia.
both ati's cards and nvidia's cards are good, ati excels in hardware speed, nvidia excels in hardware/software compatibility. i just cant stand waiting for any fix for months, not even a few days, so i bought fx5800 again, i am actually willing to swallow the higher prize weaker hardware for the reliability.

Sazar
06-25-03, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by Behemoth
which reviews you have been checking? AF performance is very good too on nvidia.
both ati's cards and nvidia's cards are good, ati excels in hardware speed, nvidia excels in hardware/software compatibility. i just cant stand waiting for any fix for months, not even a few days, so i bought fx5800 again, i am actually willing to swallow the higher prize weaker hardware for the reliability.

its a good thing you don't have to wait then isn't it :)

neither do i... everything I personally play works flawlessly...

one problem was the hl issue which the subsequent release fixed...

Behemoth
06-25-03, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by Sazar
its a good thing you don't have to wait then isn't it :)

neither do i... everything I personally play works flawlessly...

one problem was the hl issue which the subsequent release fixed...
yep :)
its very frustrated if you just bought the game home and got very excited, then whoa... the game didnt work until next driver..... but then on the other hand if it works it probably runs better and more beautiful on r3xx, you have to make a choice :)

Sazar
06-25-03, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by Behemoth
yep :)
its very frustrated if you just bought the game home and got very excited, then whoa... the game didnt work until next driver..... but then on the other hand if it works it probably runs better and more beautiful on r3xx, you have to make a choice :)

my game buying spree has slowed lately with all the crud that is being released all around :)

my next baby is going to be hl2.. and if I have spare money... doom III...

if max payne drops before that than doom III relegated to 3rd... and if total war : rome comes out.. that moves to my 2nd priority :D

Kaguya
06-25-03, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by CherryPopper

I've also looked at the official 3.5 cat sticky on Rage3D and I'm amazed at some of the issues these guys are reporting. For me the card has been smooth and stable, and has overclocked from 380 to 450 core w/o breakin much of a sweat. I dunno.... for me i think if you have a good motherboard, power supply etc and know how to use your control panel to add/remove old and newer drivers you should have very few issues with a 97/9800 board. ;)

I've read those too - I switched from a Geforce4 Ti4400 to a Radeon 9800 Pro with no problems. But I'm pretty specific about making sure things are clean.

It would be neat to see how many of the people with problems have left over registry keys, or drivers that weren't properly deleted from previous installs.

If you do go to ATi, I recommend uninstalling the nVidia drivers in Safe Mode, then deleting the nVidia directory and scanning with Regcleaner or something to get rid of the nVidia registry keys.

I did this and the ATi card installed with no trouble. No missing textures in BF1942 like some claim, no stuttering, and no problems in NWN. Cat 3.4.s, see no reason to switch until 3.6 if there is a big performance boost.

Whatever you pick, FX or Radeon, hope it works out :)

CherryPopper
06-25-03, 11:38 PM
yep i agree with you there Kaguya... I did the same thing actually, although not in safe mode. I uninstalled everything via the control panel, re-booted and then ran a utility called DriverCleaner to clean out any residual Nvidia files left behind - http://www.driverheaven.net/cleaner/

Then I fired up RegClean and deleted the Nvidia key and then installed the new drivers and control panel.

I think that when switching either way (Nvidia --> ATI or Vica Versa) a good cleaning will likely pay off big time in the long run...heh :p

AthlonXP1800
06-26-03, 12:23 AM
Why are you think of buy 5800 with enough money you got? I been done bit of research on various USA sites, I am surprised that 5800 are the same prices as 5900 and 5800 Ultra are the same prices as 5900 Ultra.

You could get 5900 for $399.00, same price as 5800:

http://www.compuhq.com/bfgasge5912d.html

You could get 5900 Ultra for $496.95, price less than 5800 Ultra:

http://www.axiontech.com/prdt.php?src=PW&item=45072

Axiontech do offer tradein, you could tradein your 4400 card when it worked again, returned from RMA for about $80, mean it could cost $416.95 with tradein Geforce 4 Ti 4400 card, if you tradein any more as the cost could fall below $400.

Of course Radeons has so many problems, if you have LCD with DVI, Radeons has annoy problems with DVI while Geforce cards dont have problem with it, my friend has LCD with DVI plugged into Geforce 4 Ti 4200 without any problems.

AthlonXP1800
06-26-03, 01:22 AM
The prices for UK trade in bare Geforce 4 Ti 4600 and 4400 I found, I converted into $ with xe.com currency exchange rates.

4600: 100 = $166.90
4400: 90 = $150.20
4200: 80 = $133.51

So I think Axiontech will offer you $150 for your Geforce 4 Ti 4400, while you will get EVGA Geforce FX 5900 Ultra for about $346.75.

CherryPopper
06-26-03, 01:33 AM
Originally posted by AthlonXP1800
Of course Radeons has so many problems, if you have LCD with DVI, Radeons has annoy problems with DVI while Geforce cards dont have problem with it... hmmm..... --> Points to the FlatPanel Monitor in my sig :rolleyes:

Personally I think DVI is the only way to go.

AthlonXP1800
06-26-03, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by CherryPopper
hmmm..... --> Points to the FlatPanel Monitor in my sig :rolleyes:

Personally I think DVI is the only way to go.

Are your monitor plugged into DVI?

Well you say you not play lots of games, I do play alots of games mostly, I read all the posts on Rage3D forum about DVI issues: many Catalysts drivers failed to recognised LCD with DVI in but recognised with analogue plug in, no windows boot screen while PC booting, no welcome screen and desktop are all blank as black. ATI told that DVI are not yet perfected on Radeons because of Industry Standard problems with DVI interface that ATI not comply with it so they went for other interface standard instead.

AthlonXP1800
06-26-03, 01:59 AM
I checked Viewsonic VG191b Flatpanel Display spec, it use DVI-D interface that ATI is comply with it so it do not use DVI-I, CherryPopper you are lucky to pick the right monitor for your Radeon 9800. :D

Sazar
06-26-03, 02:09 AM
for those who are unaware :)

r3d happens to be THE ati community on the web.. therefore from the millions of ati product users... everyone with problems WILL post there...

nvidia on the other hand does not have a single community that I am aware of that can rival the sheer size of r3d... instead it is made up of slightly smaller sites such as nvnews...

consider that the problems people have with various cards that are posted @ all the nvidia websites would be collectively posted @ one site...

once that happens... you can go ahead and compare the problems these various users face v/s the problems ati users face...

I am not saying there are not problems... some of which do apply to certain models on a largely global level... but the whole thing about.. I read such and such number of people with problems post @ r3d about blah blah problem ergo ati cards == teh suck coz they have problems... is quite ridiculous...

as for flat panel problems :)

perhaps there are problems.. but none I have personally seen :)

I build my m8's computers and normally run their hardware next to my rig.. and thus far... I have yet to see visual anomalies or graphical errors running dvi... :)

if there are problems.. I am personally blissfully unaware... :)

borntosoul
06-26-03, 02:20 AM
hey captnkill, man is your gf4 really dragging your gaming down ? cause i think thats a fine card and your 3rd option is the best in my eyes. at least its cost free and problem free and will get you by till doom3 and HL2 come out and then you can make a more informed choice about what card you will need. i just upgraded to a gf4 4200!! that works like a dream and will keep me gaming till i upgrade next year.

Placid
06-26-03, 02:25 AM
All I know is whenever I read the driver threads here when new drivers come out people are asking if this and that is fixed and saying this and that still dosen't work right so I don't think nvidia drivers are flawless either. Just look at this thread as a example.
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9206

I doublt nvidia or ati will ever make a driver that is perfect on every possible system configuration.

People are getting stuttering and other problems with some brands of 5900 ultra's as well, you have to remember 9800's are made by different card mfgs just like nvidia cards so some peoples problems may be due to the specific card mfg and not apply to all cards.

Sazar
06-26-03, 02:28 AM
Originally posted by Placid
All I know is whenever I read the driver threads here when new drivers come out people are asking if this and that is fixed and saying this and that still dosen't work right so I don't think nvidia drivers are flawless either. Just look at this thread as a example.
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9206

People are getting stuttering and other problems with some brands of 5900 ultra's as well, you have to remember 9800's are made by different card mfgs just like nvidia cards so some peoples problems may be due to the specific card mfg and not apply to all cards.

to be fair... the high end cards do not change much from the reference design if at all... mainly just the cooler...

it is a little too expensive for the OEM's to go ahead and make changes to the pcb layout for say... a 9800pro or a 5900ultra... they are made well enough as is...

sure there will be minor changes here adn there... perhaps to allow for higher clocks or some other incorporated feature... but they are for the most part the same as the reference... which is why problems like stuttering are more global than being limited to just the cards from one board maker :)