View Full Version : Did nVidia cap software PhysX?
LordJuanlo
11-11-09, 07:43 AM
I have found a very interesting article on Tom's Hardware. On page 10 (http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/batman-arkham-asylum,2465-10.html) they test Batman Arkham Asylum using software PhysX, to check the multithreading capabilities of PhysX. As far as I remember, when AGEIA released PhysX, on games that used software PhysX the game reached faster frame rates when you used a dual or quad-core CPU, PhysX libraries were multithreaded and it took a great advantage of multiple cores.
But it looks like software PhysX today is limited to one thread. How can you explain that enabling software PhysX is using less CPU than using no PhysX at all?. If you put PhysX on high in Batman, all CPU cores should be 100% busy struggling to calculate PhysX, but it looks like there is only one thread working.
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/830/batmanphysxsoftcpu.png
Look at the threads on the Core i7, you can see 3 threads when PhysX is off, but only one thread when PhysX is on!!!
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/9610/batmanphysxcputhreading.jpg
So... this proves that nVidia has artificially capped software PhysX to make it single-threaded and make the difference between software PhysX and GeForce PhysX even higher?. The numbers seem to say 'yes'.
I have a dedicated PhysX card so this situation doesn't affect me, but other people could get much higher PhysX numbers when using software PhysX. AGEIA made software PhysX multithreaded, but it looks like nVidia has removed this capability.
Rather than clearing things up, the results of this testing have only left us more puzzled. We can recall that the PhysX API is supposed to be optimized for multiple threads, yet on the Core i7, only a single thread seems to be stressed when PhysX is cranked up. We're trying to get clarification from the developers at Rocksteady about this phenomenon--it's almost as though the game is artificially capping performance at a set level, and is then using only the CPU resources it needs to reach that level. On the Core i7, PhysX is using fewer resources than it does on the Phenom II. This would make sense if there was an artificial performance cap, as the i7 has shown to outperform AMD's architecture. However, the benchmarks show us a correlation between actual performance and raw CPU speed on either CPU
Maverick123w
11-11-09, 12:31 PM
I wouldn't doubt it at all. Nvidia is being extremely aggressive as of late.
Johnny C
11-11-09, 02:46 PM
I wouldn't doubt it at all. Nvidia is being extremely aggressive as of late.
And by aggressive you mean.....wankers right?
-=DVS=-
11-11-09, 03:35 PM
nVidia is doing everything to not make PhysX popular , but its a good thing ! you know why ? because developers will move to DirectCompute instead ! and that works with anything.
Heinz68
11-11-09, 03:52 PM
nVidia is doing everything to not make PhysX popular , but its a good thing ! you know why ? because developers will move to DirectCompute instead ! and that works with anything.
Too bad the developers can be bought, I think NVIDIA will have harder time doing so when ATI gets better market share.
Maverick123w
11-11-09, 05:38 PM
And by aggressive you mean.....wankers right?
Yes
Nvidias exlusive strategy only works for them until someone else eventually provides competition. Just like with SLI compatibility. This is a pretty dirty tactic and could probably mean many people who could enjoy physx cannot.
walterman
11-11-09, 08:22 PM
... this proves that nVidia has artificially capped software PhysX to make it single-threaded and make the difference between software PhysX and GeForce PhysX even higher?. The numbers seem to say 'yes'...
Yes, i discovered this 'problem' in the Cryostasis Tech Demo too. The software PhysX test was using just 1 core.
LordJuanlo
11-12-09, 04:47 AM
I just tested it myself and I can confirm it too. nVidia is playing dirty here, you have got something that is working, and you artificially limit its performance to make GPU PhysX look so much better than CPU.
This shouldn't be the way it's meant to be played :(
CaptNKILL
11-12-09, 05:31 AM
Wow, that's really crappy.
They're playing awful dirty with this Physx stuff.
Its one thing for them to stop their technology from working with competing products, but its another thing entirely for them to artificially limit performance to make their technology look more impressive.
As much as I love nvidia's products, some of the things they're doing are really beginning to leave a bad taste in my mouth. If I could find a 5850 for cheap right now I'd buy one and be using a 9600GT for physx with the hacked driver.
I'd rather have Fermi, but every time I read something like this I feel less inclined to support nvidia and their marketing strategies.
Wow, that's really crappy.
They're playing awful dirty with this Physx stuff.
Its one thing for them to stop their technology from working with competing products, but its another thing entirely for them to artificially limit performance to make their technology look more impressive.
As much as I love nvidia's products, some of the things they're doing are really beginning to leave a bad taste in my mouth. If I could find a 5850 for cheap right now I'd buy one and be using a 9600GT for physx with the hacked driver.
I'd rather have Fermi, but every time I read something like this I feel less inclined to support nvidia and their marketing strategies.
I wonder whatever happened to nvidia's PR department - maybe they were all let go after the massive loss announced in February. :bleh: They've almost become as bad as Intel.
Ancient76
11-12-09, 02:11 PM
Is Physx designed for CPU! Is this game optimized for CPU! Is Nvidia's job to optimize this game for CPU or GPU!
Physx runs through CUDA, so it is completely normal that CPU is off loaded. Do you people remember this:
http://www.nzone.com/object/nzone_cascades_home.html
CaptNKILL
11-12-09, 03:07 PM
Is Physx designed for CPU! Is this game optimized for CPU! Is Nvidia's job to optimize this game for CPU or GPU!
Physx runs through CUDA, so it is completely normal that CPU is off loaded. Do you people remember this:
http://www.nzone.com/object/nzone_cascades_home.html
Physx doesn't use CUDA.
Physx was around before CUDA.
I'd be interested to see if CPU Physx had the same effect in games that were made for Ageia Physx before nvidia bought them out.
I just tested it myself and I can confirm it too. nVidia is playing dirty here, you have got something that is working, and you artificially limit its performance to make GPU PhysX look so much better than CPU.(
To me this is fraud. Disable something that works to get you to buy something else to restore function. They should set it up to load balance between how much free resources you have on your video vs how loaded you cpu core/s are.
nvidia is trying to act like a monopoly. But if they pull their heads out of their butts, they might notice no one has sued them yet for being a monopoly.
Ancient76
11-12-09, 03:37 PM
Physx doesn't use CUDA.
Physx was around before CUDA.
I'd be interested to see if CPU Physx had the same effect in games that were made for Ageia Physx before nvidia bought them out.
Nvidia Physx runs through CUDA. Ageia Physx engine is ported to CUDA, so it can be executed directly on GPU.
To me this is fraud. Disable something that works to get you to buy something else to restore function. They should set it up to load balance between how much free resources you have on your video vs how loaded you cpu core/s are.
nvidia is trying to act like a monopoly. But if they pull their heads out of their butts, they might notice no one has sued them yet for being a monopoly.
They didn't disabled anything.
Atomizer
11-12-09, 05:38 PM
nVidia is doing everything to not make PhysX popular , but its a good thing ! you know why ? because developers will move to DirectCompute instead ! and that works with anything.
Except DirectCompute isnt a physics library, and PhysX will one day be ported to DirectCompute, as will Havok, Bullet and other physics libraries(if they arent already)
LordJuanlo
11-13-09, 04:43 AM
They didn't disabled anything.
They did, they disabled the ability to use multiple threads when using CPU PhysX. This was enabled before nVidia bought AGEIA.
Except DirectCompute isnt a physics library, and PhysX will one day be ported to DirectCompute, as will Havok, Bullet and other physics libraries(if they arent already)
Havok and Bullet are using OpenCL though, that might be preferable cause DC doesnt exist on the consoles, while OpenCL should work on any platform (I think)
So once PhysX moved away from CUDA as its GPGPU API, OpenCL would be more likely perhaps.
Ancient76
11-13-09, 05:53 PM
They did, they disabled the ability to use multiple threads when using CPU PhysX. This was enabled before nVidia bought AGEIA.
CPU PhysX??? Is Nvidia CPU company!
Don't you think developers should do that? Nvidia is actualy enable physics in this game.
CPU PhysX??? Is Nvidia CPU company!
Don't you think developers should do that? Nvidia is actualy enable physics in this game.
Was Ageia a CPU company?
Johnny C
11-14-09, 12:27 AM
To me this is fraud. Disable something that works to get you to buy something else to restore function. They should set it up to load balance between how much free resources you have on your video vs how loaded you cpu core/s are.
nvidia is trying to act like a monopoly. But if they pull their heads out of their butts, they might notice no one has sued them yet for being a monopoly.
Yep....Yet....it's coming....
Atomizer
11-14-09, 02:59 AM
Havok and Bullet are using OpenCL though, that might be preferable cause DC doesnt exist on the consoles, while OpenCL should work on any platform (I think)
So once PhysX moved away from CUDA as its GPGPU API, OpenCL would be more likely perhaps.
Well, OpenCL and DirectCompute essentially have the same functionality, except OpenCL is crossplatform like OpenGL, not that it matters for games who pretty much run D3D anyway...
CPU PhysX??? Is Nvidia CPU company!
Don't you think developers should do that? Nvidia is actualy enable physics in this game.
Sience when has nVidia done device drivers..:rolleyes:
You do know that physx is used for game physics even when you GPU isn't from nvidia..
LordJuanlo
11-14-09, 07:48 AM
CPU PhysX??? Is Nvidia CPU company!
Don't you think developers should do that? Nvidia is actualy enable physics in this game.
ROFLMAO you don't even know what PhysX is and how it works... it can run in both GPU and CPU. When you choose GPU it runs on nVidia cards, when you choose CPU it runs on your CPU. Months ago it used multiple threads in CPU mode to gain advantage of multiple cores/processors. Now nVidia has removed this capability and forced it to run in a single thread, so CPU PhysX will artificially look much worse than GPU PhysX.
It was working before, and now nVidia capped it.
Johnny C
11-14-09, 02:15 PM
ROFLMAO you don't even know what PhysX is and how it works... it can run in both GPU and CPU. When you choose GPU it runs on nVidia cards, when you choose CPU it runs on your CPU. Months ago it used multiple threads in CPU mode to gain advantage of multiple cores/processors. Now nVidia has removed this capability and forced it to run in a single thread, so CPU PhysX will artificially run much slower than GPU PhysX.
It was working before, and now nVidia capped it.
Edit:
Just to be clear...as there have been some less than witty comments in this thread already....
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