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Trademark
11-23-09, 12:42 PM
I am a frequent visitor of Tweakers.net which is pretty much the biggest hardware and software site of the Netherlands and I just thought I had to share this with you guys. In September a thread popped up of G80 based cards such as the 8800GTX suddenly dying shortly after the 2-year warranty had ended. The thread is currently 13 pages long as many people have suddenly found that their G80 based card is showing artifacts all of a sudden and all of these cards are roughly the same age (Approx. 2 years).

I was wondering if many people are experiencing the same thing or have seen a similar thread on other forums. I'm not a visitor of other sites such as Rage3D so I can't tell.

In any case, the solution to the problem appears to be the oven trick. Many people have baked their 8800 card in the oven, reviving it in the process. There is some speculation that the cards suffer from similar solder problems as some of the mobile Geforce 8/9 variants. It is said that due to the constant heating up and cooling off of the card causes the solder to burst causing artifacts and general instability.

The thread is in Dutch, but for completeness's sake I'll include it anyways:
http://gathering.tweakers.net/forum/list_messages/1367618

Translated OP:

Dear fellow tweakers,

I am aware that many of you own a 8800GTX / 8800Ultra and I'd like to know what you think of the following. Almost my whole online friend club owns a G80 based card and all of them seem to be dropping like flies all of a sudden. Especially the GTX and Ultra variants. Also, in our store, Paradigit, we suddenly see a lot more customers who have similar complaints of these cards dying.

The problems vary from green lines on the screen to no image on the screen at all. There are also problems with crashes and freezes of the drivers/PC.

Does anybody have a clue what is going on with these cards or how this can be solved (if at all)? Or even better: How to prevent or delay this issue? I happen to know a lot of people in my direct enviroment (myself included) who still have such a card and have had to save a fair amount of money for such a card. Because of that I'd prefer it if there is any way to prevent this issue from occuring, whatever the chances are.

Sorry for the somewhat shoddy translation

EDIT: Green lines, blue blocks or no image at all seem to be the most prominent problems.

The 8800GTX seems to make up for most of the dying G80s in that thread, then the GTS's, then the Ultras. Any thoughts?

Q
11-23-09, 03:00 PM
The oven trick doesn't make any sense at all when addressing issues with soldering. I'm welling to bet that there are still tons of people who have the bad resistor from the original batch that never got their card replaced.

Also, I bet most high end users have never USED a high end graphics card for two years because it's usually worth replacing them every year. Think about it: the 8800 series can still handle pretty much any game that you throw at it. People have held on to these cards and used them in production gaming environments. The card runs HOT when you compare it to high end cards from years past. I would be very surprised if the card will last three years for most people just because of all of the heat the things generate. Especially when few cases are equiped to handle that type of thermal load. I would wager that few people have air flow over the top of the card, where it gets VERY hot but isn't covered by the cooler.

I don't think it's some two year conspiracy, but I'm not surprised that modern graphics cards don't last forever like the old Voodoo's or Geforce 3s. The 8800 is the most popular card from the last two years, so you are going to hear about issues more often. I bet any high end card that has recently been produced will be lucky to make it to 3 or 4 years if it is constantly being hammered on.

That being said, I've had minor artifact issues since I got the card. Some driver sets and games make it noticeable while others hide the issue - of course its been probably a year since I've seen the issue. The issue I HAVE dealt with - under Vista and W7 - is that UAC takes forever to pop up (1-2 second black screen) with this card whereas some of my new lower-end cards handle it quickly.

Trademark
11-23-09, 03:27 PM
The oven trick doesn't make any sense at all when addressing issues with soldering.
And why not? An oven heated to 200 degrees C may not melt the solder, but will emove any cracks or bursts in the solder. You can't fix a faulty transistor by baking it. It works for most 8800 users in that thread who simply baked their cards in an oven for 10 minutes, cool down for about 30 minutes to an hour, put it back in and voila. It works again. The only possible thing I can think of is the solder. You can't fix your GPU, RAM or other components by baking them AFAIK. All the oven trick does is reflow the solder a bit, which usually is enough to do the trick.

It is not a permanent solution of course, since you're not fixing the actual problem (card heating up, cooling off), but there are plenty of people who report their card has been working for several weeks already after baking it, wheras before baking it, it wouldn't even go past the motherboard's POST, crash when starting Windows or whatever.

I'm welling to bet that there are still tons of people who have the bad resistor from the original batch that never got their card replaced.
That's a define negative. These people are not your average gamers. Most of these guys work in the IT industry all on different levels. Suffice to say, these people are very much aware of the fact that the first batch of the G80's had issues with bad transistors. From what I recall there used to be a forum thread about that too at the time.

Also, I bet most high end users have never USED a high end graphics card for two years because it's usually worth replacing them every year.
I can't say that I agree. I may be an entheusiast, but I'm not going to replace my graphics card every year, especially if it's not worth it. I currently own a 4870, but have no intentions of switching over to a Fermi/Radeon 5000 series card.

Think about it: the 8800 series can still handle pretty much any game that you throw at it. People have held on to these cards and used them in production gaming environments. The card runs HOT when you compare it to high end cards from years past. I would be very surprised if the card will last three years for most people just because of all of the heat the things generate.
That would be due to faulty design. It is only reasonable to expect a product with that price tag to function for a reasonable period. A reasonable period being more than 3 years. Not sure what the stance is in the USA, but here it is decided by law.

Especially when few cases are equiped to handle that type of thermal load. I would wager that few people have air flow over the top of the card, where it gets VERY hot but isn't covered by the cooler.
These people are entheusiasts. Knowing some of them, they have more than adequate cooling. Also as I pointed out, the problem seems to be caused not by heat, but the constant warming up and cooling off of the card, more specifically the solder, causing the solder to crack/burst. A similar thing that happened to the mobile Geforce 8/9 series.

I don't think it's some two year conspiracy
Nor do I or the people at T.net.

but I'm not surprised that modern graphics cards don't last forever like the old Voodoo's or Geforce 3s. The 8800 is the most popular card from the last two years, so you are going to hear about issues more often. I bet any high end card that has recently been produced will be lucky to make it to 3 or 4 years if it is constantly being hammered on.
Be that as it may, it's not reasonable. It is only natural to expect more from a card like this. If a product appears to be faulty and someone here in Europe would make a big case out of it, they'd likely win if this is caused by bad solder or other crappy materials. Simply because we can expect the card to last a reasonable amount of time.

The 8800 is the most popular card from the last two years, so you are going to hear about issues more often
Definately, this is only logical, but we see a trend here. Many cards failing after approx. 2 years of use, which is IMHO way too early, unless your product is bad. We're talking about $600 cards here. I remember buying mine for €600+. I don't have it anymore, but I wonder if it's still alive.

I bet any high end card that has recently been produced will be lucky to make it to 3 or 4 years if it is constantly being hammered on.
4 years of constant hammering is much more reasonable for a product I pay €600 for.

That being said, I've had minor artifact issues since I got the card. Some driver sets and games make it noticeable while others hide the issue - of course its been probably a year since I've seen the issue. The issue I HAVE dealt with - under Vista and W7 - is that UAC takes forever to pop up (1-2 second black screen) with this card whereas some of my new lower-end cards handle it quickly.
I can't comment on this really. I currently do not have any high-end Geforce card running in any of my PCs. The highest at the moment is an FX5700 Ultra on an XP machine. I hope to build an SLI system with 2 7800GTX's soon though. Bought one for €17 lol.

EDIT: Oh wait... forgot my notebook with the 9700M, I have UAC turned off so I still can't comment on that. Don't play any games on it very often though, bit of a shame, should really get some games back ont here.

candle_86
11-23-09, 04:35 PM
actully the fact doesn't suprise me. Also there is a life time given to eletronics, your average CPU is a lifetime for 3-5 years constant use, though they usally go alot longer. The heating and cooling though is very likly, remember high speed doesnt kick in on the card till its hot, so you spend sevral seconds in 3d before it revs to 3d fan settings. So the GPU is heating and cooling even in 3d and under constant use that strains eletonics, and with the billions of transitors in use its not real suprise they are being tax'd to the limit. The warranty your card comes with covers the lifetime they decided to give you. If it says 2 years that means after 2 years the card is a toss up. When I buy a card I check warranty.

Trademark
11-24-09, 07:32 AM
actully the fact doesn't suprise me. Also there is a life time given to eletronics, your average CPU is a lifetime for 3-5 years constant use, though they usally go alot longer. The heating and cooling though is very likly, remember high speed doesnt kick in on the card till its hot, so you spend sevral seconds in 3d before it revs to 3d fan settings. So the GPU is heating and cooling even in 3d and under constant use that strains eletonics, and with the billions of transitors in use its not real suprise they are being tax'd to the limit. The warranty your card comes with covers the lifetime they decided to give you. If it says 2 years that means after 2 years the card is a toss up. When I buy a card I check warranty.

It is done by law here:

The LEGAL warranty (NOT factory warranty) here doesn't work like it works in the USA, probably. Here warranty is given based on how long we can expect a product to be used. For example: We can expect a washing machine to last 5 to 10 years. We can expect a garage gateway (Correct term?) to last longer than 10 years even. It's not exactly reasonable to give a 2 year warranty on it. By your wording a waching machine with a 2 year warranty is pretty much at the end of its life by that time. I wouldn't buy or accept that when it has been shown that manufacturers can do much better than that haha (Which they obviously have since waching machines tend to live a lot longer than 2 years).

Basically, even after the factory warranty expires, you still, as a consumer have a right to the legal warranty that is based on the lifte time we can reasonably expect from the product. This is by law, it doesn't really matter what the factory claims.

I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a €600 product to last longer than 2 years of usage. I mean, you could buy a couple of more complex motherboards for that money that tend to last longer than 2 years as well.

So the GPU is heating and cooling even in 3d and under constant use that strains eletonics
So? Why only G80s? This is a design thing, you know as a manufacturer this is going to happen so you do your best to overcome this by using proper material. I don't recall these complaints with say for example the 2900XT cards or 7800GTX cards.

I really don't think it is related to the 3D temperature either. There were people who had their fan running constantly at 70% or even higher in 2D (When I had my 8800GTX I had the fan running at 100% always, didn't mind the little bit of noise).

Burnt_Ram
11-24-09, 07:55 AM
ive had 2 eVGA 8800GTS 640mb G80's for well over 2 years overclocked to 621/1566/900 with the fans at 100% and they still run perfect. ones a rev2, and the other a rev3. they out perform my GTX260 even with its big overclock! i actually put them back in the other day ;)

Johnny C
11-24-09, 10:29 AM
actully the fact doesn't suprise me. Also there is a life time given to eletronics, your average CPU is a lifetime for 3-5 years constant use, though they usally go alot longer. The heating and cooling though is very likly, remember high speed doesnt kick in on the card till its hot, so you spend sevral seconds in 3d before it revs to 3d fan settings. So the GPU is heating and cooling even in 3d and under constant use that strains eletonics, and with the billions of transitors in use its not real suprise they are being tax'd to the limit. The warranty your card comes with covers the lifetime they decided to give you. If it says 2 years that means after 2 years the card is a toss up. When I buy a card I check warranty.

I'd like more info on this. I was under the impression that it was something like 10 years @ Tcasemax temperature with 100% load...

Madpistol
11-25-09, 03:24 AM
BTW, my 8800 GTX died roughly 2 years after I bought it. Fortunately, EVGA has a nice lifetime warranty on their cards, so that was nice. I got a 9800 GTX+ as the replacement card.

Funny enough, a year later the 9800 GTX+ died as well. I'm now on my 2nd 9800 GTX+. I pray that this one doesn't die. I will be getting an aftermarket cooler that will hopefully prolong its life.

qube
11-25-09, 05:57 AM
my 8800 ultra is dying to :thumbdwn:

Trademark
11-25-09, 08:45 AM
How old is your 8800 Ultra? Have warranty?

xorbe
11-30-09, 08:58 PM
Video cards imho are one of the higher failure rate items in a computer. The non-overclocked high performance cards basically ARE overclocked as designed ... that's why there are so many problems with the factory "overclocked" cards ... there's already no margin.

I actually flashed my GTX260 down in speed and voltage a little bit. The fan never ever speeds up, and it runs nice and cool, and should last forever this way.

Reliability/longevity is not a key feature for most PC component manufacturers. Sad, but true it seems.

betterdan
11-30-09, 09:07 PM
We have a computer with a 6800 Ultra that has been in there since they first came out. A capacitor got busted off of it a couple years ago but I guess the damn thing wasn't needed because it's still trucking along in the computer upstairs.

agentkay
11-30-09, 10:00 PM
My 8800GTX is three years old and still going strong, been overclocked most of the time. One of the best cards that I ever bought. Nvidia cards never disappointed me (and rarely ever the drivers) had one since the TNT1 (but held onto my GF4 until the 6800 came out, avoiding the 5 series completely).

NoWayDude
12-01-09, 05:03 AM
8800 GTS, since the day it came out. Have throw everything at it, and still running strong

Crow_Nest
12-01-09, 12:43 PM
In September a thread popped up of G80 based cards such as the 8800GTX suddenly dying shortly after the 2-year warranty had ended. The thread is currently 13 pages long as many people have suddenly found that their G80 based card is showing artifacts all of a sudden and all of these cards are roughly the same age (Approx. 2 years).

Funny how my 8800GT just died last week. And it turns 2 this december 20th. :p

Kemo
12-01-09, 03:55 PM
Well sheit i hope my cards last longer. I have an evga 8800GTX from week 1 (Nov 2006, $650) and another OEM Nvidia card i bought off ebay for $250 about a year ago. They run hot as hell. I have my side-panel case fan pulling the hot air out, so far so good. But there were times when the SLI would heat up my room. I even have a 7800GT that still works, and a FX5950 Ultra that still works.

fivefeet8
12-01-09, 04:02 PM
My 8800gtx died last year(got it Nov06), but because I have an EVGA lifetime warranty, it was replaced with another 8800gtx. Hopefully this one dies sometime next year. :)

HiCZoK4
12-02-09, 01:52 PM
my 8800gt is great. Almost everything still works now. Too bad I can't get any other 8800 anywhere for SLI
Anyway. I got it year and half ago after sold gts320

Hope it will DIE and BURN in hell So I will HAVE TO GET A NEW ONE:D

no... I love my 8800gt. Dusted it off and cleaned. It will live forever!

Trademark
12-06-09, 04:59 PM
For the record, 8800GT's should not be affected. These are G92 cards, not G80.

G80 = 8800GTX/GTS (Not the GTS 512 version, that is also G92)/Ultra

Redeemed
12-06-09, 05:18 PM
I just bought a pair of 8800GTXs from somebody here not that long ago. They're still rocking. :D I've also still got my dual 640MB 8800GTSs running strong in my parents' rig.

bob saget
12-06-09, 08:29 PM
I just bought a pair of 8800GTXs from somebody here not that long ago. They're still rocking. :D I've also still got my dual 640MB 8800GTSs running strong in my parents' rig.

They do alot of high res gaming? :D

Redeemed
12-06-09, 08:48 PM
They do alot of high res gaming? :D

My little sister does. They bought it from me mostly for her. It's running my old FX-60 in an A8N32 SLi Dlx with 4GB of RAM and those two 8800s under Vista x64. Pretty screaming little rig even compared to my i7. :)

bob saget
12-07-09, 01:35 AM
My little sister does. They bought it from me mostly for her. It's running my old FX-60 in an A8N32 SLi Dlx with 4GB of RAM and those two 8800s under Vista x64. Pretty screaming little rig even compared to my i7. :)

Nice. I remember when that chip came out, the FX. Everyone wanted it.

Joe Public
12-10-09, 08:40 AM
I had an 8800GTS 640MB, bought in April '07. It's still working fine. Though it's not in my main rig. My friend is using it and it's running about as well as the day I got it. Let's hope it keeps doing that.

shaker718
12-14-09, 03:26 PM
My 8800gts just died on me after a lock-up with artifacts galore, a little over 2yrs to the day. I can boot so far but as soon as it gets to the desktop I start seeing all kinds of pixelation, boxes etc. tried reinstalling drivers, cleaning etc. no go, So I just ordered a 5770 to replace it and setting up an rma with evga. Luckily I have a lifetime warranty...