ATI and AA

[NarcissistZero]

In my continued debate over going ATI in a couple weeks...

I force AA through nHancer all the time. Sometimes the only way to get AA is through an nHancer profile like I just did with Star Wars: The Force Unleashed and the Vanguard profile. I am one of those annoying PC gamers who NEEDS AA or I am driven nuts by jaggies.

I have read that getting AA forced when the normal ATI Control Panel does not force it is impossible. Is this true?

For example can you obtain AA in the following games on ATI?

Star Wars The Force Unleashed
Borderlands
GTA4
Mass Effect
Bioshock
etc.

[mailman2]

In my continued debate over going ATI in a couple weeks...

I force AA through nHancer all the time. Sometimes the only way to get AA is through an nHancer profile like I just did with Star Wars: The Force Unleashed and the Vanguard profile. I am one of those annoying PC gamers who NEEDS AA or I am driven nuts by jaggies.

I have read that getting AA forced when the normal ATI Control Panel does not force it is impossible. Is this true?

For example can you obtain AA in the following games on ATI?

Star Wars The Force Unleashed
Borderlands
GTA4
Mass Effect
Bioshock
etc.

Force from CP, (worst case scenario you also have to rename .exe to UT3.exe). SWFU worked forced and renamed with 9.11. I think it was fixed with 9.12 though and you should just need to force from CP - havent tried it with 9.12 yet. Bioshock same thing, the .exe application detection should work, just force from CP. Not sure about Borderlands, should be in 9.12 if not will be soon.

GTA IV - there is no AA. Not sure about Mass Effect, never played it.

I'm with ya man, I need my AA :)

[slaWter]

It's best to use the ingame AA settings with ATI. In addition to that you can improve the AA setting by using Edge Detect AA in CCC. An ingame setting of 4xAA will result in 12xAA and ingame 8xAA in 24xAA - it's quite a cool feature!

But for certain games you need to force AA in CCC. You listed a few of those games, mainly the UE3 games. It's possible to force AA in UE3 DX9 games (not sure about DX10) by setting the Catalyst AI to High and renaming the game's .exe file to "UT3.exe". GTA4 AA is a no go, just like with nV. I don't have Borderlands or TFU...
I'm going to finish Mass Effect this week and I'll report back if the UE3 method really works.

There is also an AA setting for alpha/transparency AA called Adaptive MSAA. I only tried it in iRacing so far but that didn't work that well, I lost quite a few trackside objects, all the trees were gone for example :o

Overall you won't find the same amount of settings and options in CCC compared to nHancer. Usually it's possible to get AA working but I much prefer the nV way with the compatibility bits and additional AA modes.

[LBJM]

Yeah i like using AA. The thing I don't like is renaming the exe and not being able to setup profile for apps.
Rather than renaming the exe to programs yourself you can use CrossFire Xtension, to force different AA levels for each program/game.
http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=293467

it also has the ability to change CrossFire method (Auto, AFR, SPR, Supertiling, SuperAA), The thing I like about this program the most.
I can't remember all the exe naming conventions, so now my lazy self won't have to ;)

there's also ATT tools For forcing things http://forums.guru3d.com/forumdisplay.php?f=53

[NarcissistZero]

It's best to use the ingame AA settings with ATI. In addition to that you can improve the AA setting by using Edge Detect AA in CCC. An ingame setting of 4xAA will result in 12xAA and ingame 8xAA in 24xAA - it's quite a cool feature!

But for certain games you need to force AA in CCC. You listed a few of those games, mainly the UE3 games. It's possible to force AA in UE3 DX9 games (not sure about DX10) by setting the Catalyst AI to High and renaming the game's .exe file to "UT3.exe". GTA4 AA is a no go, just like with nV. I don't have Borderlands or TFU...
I'm going to finish Mass Effect this week and I'll report back if the UE3 method really works.

There is also an AA setting for alpha/transparency AA called Adaptive MSAA. I only tried it in iRacing so far but that didn't work that well, I lost quite a few trackside objects, all the trees were gone for example :o

Overall you won't find the same amount of settings and options in CCC compared to nHancer. Usually it's possible to get AA working but I much prefer the nV way with the compatibility bits and additional AA modes.

Thanks, good answers.

GTA4 has a super-sampling method with nHancer and a mod.

[slaWter]

Thanks, good answers.

GTA4 has a super-sampling method with nHancer and a mod.

I know. But I never got around to test the ENB series mod in GTA4. Not sure how it impacts the frame rate.

btw, AA works in Mass Effect without renaming the .exe :)

[Xion X2]

I posted this in another thread around here.

_________________________________________


I see that in reading through a lot of the older posts that some guys coming from Nvidia setups are having problems getting AA working with ATI. Since I have a lot of experience w/ ATI's AA and the Catalyst in general, here's how it works:

First of all, as you've already discovered, ATI's AA is quite different from Nvidia's implementation. Enabling the Catalyst MSAA (multisampling AA) option usually does not work if there is an in-game AA option. If you want to defer to driver AA in these situations (like if you want to increase your AA from the maximum in-game 4 to 8xAA or something higher) then you must enable the "Edge Detect" option on the Catalyst and ensure that you have in-game AA turned on and the driver set to "application preference" (yes, even though you are enabling Edge Detect in the driver, the AA mode still must be set to app preference.) What this will do is apply additional AA to what's already in-game.

The way that Edge-Detect works is it uses the shaders to apply additional AA that is already being handled by the ROPs. It uses no VRAM, also, so if you're playing a game where you're already maxing your VRAM capacity with texture mods or whatever, then it's a great option to have. There are two settings for the edge-detect: 12x and 24x. A 4x sample will receive 12x AA, and an 8x sample will receive 24xAA.

Let's look at an example.

Let's say that I'm playing NFS Shift (I don't have the game yet, but bear with me for the sake of explaining) and I want to run higher AA than what's available in-game (4x.) The proper way to go about it would be to keep the in-game AA turned on at 4x, go into the Catalyst, and enable "Edge Detect." This will apply a 12xAA sample to the 4x in-game. If, on the other hand, NFS Shift had an 8xAA option and I kept that on while enforcing Edge Detect in the Catalyst, I would receive 24xAA.

The Catalyst multisampling options usually only work for games that have no in-game AA option, such as Oblivion. This is where you would enable 4x, 8x, 16x (or 12x / 24x edge-detect) in the driver. For Oblivion, I found 24x edge detect to provide the absolute best viewing experience that I've seen on either ATI or Nvidia cards. Can't be beat, in my opinion, and the performance was decent at that.

So, to summarize, learn how Edge-Detect works and how to set it appropriately to sync with your in-game settings. Once you figure out ATI's implementation, things are a breeze. I tend to like ATI's implementation more than Nvidia's because I enjoy having the Edge Detect that offers absolutely fantastic visuals at minimal performance cost since it runs entirely on the shaders and not the ROPs/VRAM.

ATI really should have some sort of formal documentation that explains how all of this works, though, as it's confusing compared to the ease of Nvidia's implementation.

For those running Crossfire, you only need one bridge. Take the 2nd off if you're using it because it can sometimes cause issues, depending on the application. Like SLI, only one bridge is needed per additional card.

Hope that helps.

[NarcissistZero]

Good post, interesting read.

Mainly I think what I am worried about is not having AA at all in some games where only an nHancer profile can get you AA on an nVidia card. Wolfenstein is another example I thought of. If either of the methods you listed would provide AA in Wolfenstein for example then I would be satisfied.

[MustangSVT]

I was able to get AA in Mass Effect by forcing it through control panel. GTA 4 however not possible. I rarely use AA though and certainly wouldn't use it in GTA 4 since I need all the performance I can get.

[kaptkarl]

Me thinks the Nvidia boys are trying to come up with excuses to not go ATI.......the better cards this round by far.:D

Kapt

[Rummy]

Thanks Xion for that very helpful post. :)

[Xion X2]

Good post, interesting read.

Mainly I think what I am worried about is not having AA at all in some games where only an nHancer profile can get you AA on an nVidia card. Wolfenstein is another example I thought of. If either of the methods you listed would provide AA in Wolfenstein for example then I would be satisfied.

Thanks Xion for that very helpful post. :)

No problem, guys.

The one fallback of ATI, in my opinion, is their customer relations. I mean, how the hell they expect anyone to figure out their AA methods without a lot of head-scratching and experimenting with one setting after another, after another, I'll never know. But once you get them all down, they work pretty good. And you may learn to really like the Edge Detect like I do.

There have been few games that I haven't been able to get to work w/ AA with ATI. They do occur sometimes, but they're usually rare, and ATI usually fixes them in subsequent driver releases.

There is a tool out called "Crossfire Xtension" which I *think* I remember seeing some users say allowed forced AA on a game where they couldn't get it before. I know that it allows for creating profiles which a lot of Nvidia guys complain about. I don't have the link on me, but I found it on guru3D so you may want to do a search on google if you can't find it there.

Edit: Here's a link to it
http://www.epichardware.com/bin/ATI_CF_Xtension.rar

[Rummy]

What about D3DOverrider or something like that?

[Rummy]

Oops

[NarcissistZero]

Me thinks the Nvidia boys are trying to come up with excuses to not go ATI.......the better cards this round by far.:D

Kapt

In a way. They are obviously better which is why I am about to switch over, I just have reservations.

[mailman2]

Personally, I can't wait for Fermi, my Geforce FX leaf blower died recently and I'm in the market...

http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/2539/blower2dt2.jpg
(not my pic but lmao)

Loving my overclocked 5870, its the shiz. Not a single issue with the drivers either.

[jlippo]

I'm not sure that ati edge detect AAs should be described as 12x or 24x, the maximum sample amount is 8xMSAA.
Calling it something like '4x+tap12 ' might be better for 12x mode and so on.

In the end it is quite similar to nvidias quicunx which no-one thinks as 5xAA. (as it is basically 2xMSAA with 5 samples taken or the 4x+tap9 AA mode)

[Xion X2]

I'm not sure that ati edge detect AAs should be described as 12x or 24x, the maximum sample amount is 8xMSAA.
Calling it something like '4x+tap12 ' might be better for 12x mode and so on.

In the end it is quite similar to nvidias quicunx which no-one thinks as 5xAA. (as it is basically 2xMSAA with 5 samples taken or the 4x+tap9 AA mode)

It's far superior to Nvidia's quicunx method and in many cases is superior to MSAA. Visually, it's quite easy to tell.

This was a good comparison test that Anandtech ran back at the launch of the 4xxx series between the different AA methods for both Nv and ATI. Edge-detect offered a superior image to all of them.

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3341&p=11

In this image in particular, a comparison of Nvidia's 16xCSAA to ATI's 24x Edge Detect, look at the difference in smoothness of the edges:

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/7852/edgedetect2.jpg

And here, a comparison of Nvidia's 8xMSAA to ATI's 24x Edge Detect, look how much sharper the bricks in the building are with Edge Detect. They appear to stick out from the building whereas they're badly blurred in the MSAA Nvidia shots:

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/7702/edgedetect.jpg

Edge Detect is simply the best looking AA method that I've seen to date. It offers smooth edges while at the same time not blurring the image.

[CaptNKILL]

Personally, I can't wait for Fermi, my Geforce FX leaf blower died recently and I'm in the market...

http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/2539/blower2dt2.jpg
(not my pic but lmao)

Loving my overclocked 5870, its the shiz. Not a single issue with the drivers either.

You're a lot older and a lot more Asian than I would have pictured.

[jlippo]

Edge Detect is simply the best looking AA method that I've seen to date. It offers smooth edges while at the same time not blurring the image.
Yes, it's superior to quicunx due to the selective usage of the filtering, but it shouldn't be said to be a 24xAA when the amount of subsamples is not 24/pixel.

CSAA is quite different and in some cases it can look quite bit worse than the 4xMSAA without coverage samples. (when objects or polygons are rendered from front to back, which is quite a bad thing as it is more efficent way of rendering things. ;))

[Xion X2]

Yes, it's superior to quicunx due to the selective usage of the filtering, but it shouldn't be said to be a 24xAA when the amount of subsamples is not 24/pixel.



Technicalities aside, whatever it's doing, it looks better than anything else I've seen--even 16xMSAA. It cleans up edges just as much or more and doesn't blur the image surface. That's all that matters to me.

[Johnny C]

Technicalities aside, whatever it's doing, it looks better than anything else I've seen--even 16xMSAA. It cleans up edges just as much or more and doesn't blur the image surface. That's all that matters to me.

I love EVE:Online with 4xAA and Edge Detect.....ships look fantastic.

[mcolbourn]

Sorry to bring this thread back up to the top. But having just gone to an ATI card I just want to clear up its AA settings.

If I understand correctly, If I set the AA mode to edge detect and leaving it on use Application settings then in a game that supports AA setting (within the game) changing it to 4X the it will use 12X CFAA and if you set in game to 8X then it using 24X CFAA.

If you set it manually (uncheck the use application setting) and set it to 4 or 8 then it using 12 or 24 respectively.

Also what mode to you set the AA mode to I understand MSAA and SSAA, where SSAA is better but what about the adaptive MSAA if that a good setting to use or should I stick with SSAA?

[Xion X2]

If I understand correctly, If I set the AA mode to edge detect and leaving it on use Application settings then in a game that supports AA setting (within the game) changing it to 4X the it will use 12X CFAA and if you set in game to 8X then it using 24X CFAA.

If you set it manually (uncheck the use application setting) and set it to 4 or 8 then it using 12 or 24 respectively.

AA will not work if there is an in-game AA option and you uncheck "application settings" in your control panel and try to force edge-detect. This is the one difference between ATI and Nvidia. Nvidia allows you to override pretty much any AA setting the game will have. With ATI, it applies an additional AA filter to what you already receive in-game.

So if there is an in-game AA option, then you need to use it. If the in-game AA isn't enough for you, then set the edge-detect within the Catalyst but make sure that "application settings" is checked, and it will apply the ED filter to the in-game AA.

In the instance that a game doesn't have an AA option, then you can still use edge detect. This would be when you would uncheck the "application settings" option within the Catalyst. You can also use standard MSAA modes as well as the "tent" modes, but the tent modes have the worst image quality due to blurring of the image surface.

Also what mode to you set the AA mode to I understand MSAA and SSAA, where SSAA is better but what about the adaptive MSAA if that a good setting to use or should I stick with SSAA?

There's really no right setting. It comes down to what looks best to you at what performance cost. SSAA is always going to be more taxing on the hardware than MSAA, but it offers better image quality.

[mcolbourn]

Thanks Xion, Its all come back to me now after you explained that. I now remember from when I had my 4870. Its odd how you come to just forget things when you use a different manufacture settings.