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shadow001
03-03-10, 12:30 PM
True numbers are is that 470 model sits between 5870 and 5890 and 480 is fast as ATI 5890 (of course when crossfire works properly) which makes AMD offering to look like joke.


5890 doesn't exist yet.

Vardant
03-03-10, 12:35 PM
Even if it uses a lot more power?
Even if it's more expensive?
Even if it doesn't really beat the competition?
Even if Nvidia at one point made a statement that Fermi would clearly beat the HD5870 cards?

You don't know any of that, so stop trolling.

Fotis
03-03-10, 12:45 PM
how long do you guys think before we will see some 480 benchies?

Best bet is 26th of March and maybe we'll have some credible leaks some days before that date.

shadow001
03-03-10, 12:46 PM
You don't know any of that, so stop trolling.


Actually we do for power....GTX 480's use a 6 + 8 pin PCI power connector setup as shown on the leaked pictures,while the HD5870 cards use a 6 + 6 pin PCI-e power connector....

The fist can deliver up to 300 watts,while the setup the HD5870 use can deliver 225 watts max,and the TDP of the HD5870 cards is 188 watts.


So it'll be interesting if the GTX480 can't really beat the HD5870 cards in performance,while at the same time using a fair amount more power in the process,and that's even before someone attempts to overclock the card.


Oh and Nvidia's CEO did make that statement at one point in an interview,so that's not bull**** either.

scubes
03-03-10, 01:21 PM
is it popcorn time again round one ding ding:).....

Noriega
03-03-10, 01:22 PM
Yeah, can't you guys wait with your opinions for 4xxx reviews?

Iruwen
03-03-10, 01:29 PM
TDP of the HD5870 cards is 188 watts

The 5870 went up to 207W (http://www.3dcenter.org/artikel/zum-launch-von-radeon-hd-5850-5870) here which actually shouldn't happen, also the power converters got really hot (measured 96C) (http://images.ht4u.net/reviews/2009/amd_ati_radeon_hd_5870/wbk_klein.png).
If one of the more promising rumors becomes true, the GTX 470 will perform similar to the 5870. Which isn't too unrealistic since it also has two 6 pin connectors and probably a TDP of around 190W (since it's supposed to have an overvoltage feature).
On the other side, a 50% higher transistor count means that it simply cannot run at the same speeds with the same TDP (simple physics), so in the end it's a question of efficiency.
Remember that in the CPU market, Prescott went up to far more than 3Ghz and is now outperformed by almost any modern CPU way below 3Ghz.

shadow001
03-03-10, 01:31 PM
All i'm saying is what MAY happen,assuming the fight is tight between the HD5870 and Fermi in gaming,tough questions like these will be made and Nvidia can't bull**** or market it's way out of that incoming storm.


People can talk alot,but at some point,you have to back up that talk with hard data,and compare that with the competition in the end.

Enrico_be
03-03-10, 01:34 PM
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbDFiAiCRd0
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMIoZo7g9r8

Amazing imo :)

shadow001
03-03-10, 01:36 PM
The 5870 went up to 207W (http://www.3dcenter.org/artikel/zum-launch-von-radeon-hd-5850-5870) here which actually shouldn't happen, also the power converters got really hot (measured 96C) (http://images.ht4u.net/reviews/2009/amd_ati_radeon_hd_5870/wbk_klein.png).
If one of the more promising rumors becomes true, the GTX 470 will perform similar to the 5870. Which isn't too unrealistic since it also has two 6 pin connectors and probably a TDP of around 190W (since it's supposed to have an overvoltage feature).
On the other side, a 50% higher transistor count means that it simply cannot run at the same speeds with the same TDP (simple physics), so in the end it's a question of efficiency.
Remember that in the CPU market, Prescott went up to far more than 3Ghz and is now outperformed by almost any modern CPU way below 3Ghz.


That's furmark,which hits pretty hard on texturing performance,well beyond what any game will ever use anyhow....Run fermi with it's 3 billion transistors on Furmark,and it might be a pretty scary experience too.


I will admit that the power regulators on HD5*** do run hot,but they're specced to run at up to 120*C while operating normally anyhow.

Vardant
03-03-10, 01:37 PM
Furmark doesn't really count though. There's no other app., that can replicate that kind of load and also ATI made some changes to their drivers I think, that detect it and the card isn't running at full speed.

Iruwen
03-03-10, 01:45 PM
http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=22702

scubes
03-03-10, 01:52 PM
that sled demo is aload of **** in my eyes it doesnt measure game performance one bit i wanna see crysis running and some other games not this sled tech demo.

Enrico_be
03-03-10, 02:07 PM
that sled demo is aload of **** in my eyes it doesnt measure game performance one bit i wanna see crysis running and some other games not this sled tech demo.

There are a lot of people out there who use their graphics card for more things than just gaming, the sled demo shows what kind of huge calculations Fermi is capable of :)

But I agree with you Scubes, As a casual gamer myself I 2 wanna see some Crysis or other game benchmarks :)

A nice read btw and something we should all keep in mind ;)

"Interesting enough the same speculations and accusations can be found on nearly every major technology oriented site. Fact is no one truly knows more extending beyond those speculations and accusations. New technology provides new issues to create and resolve, thus everyone should keep in mind NVIDIA is not merely taking old architecture and slapping it on a new model number. They are in fact creating a new graphics processing unit altogether, built on new ways to calculate graphics computation. That is most important to note as they are not just turning up clocks and refreshing old chips. They have constructed what is quite possibly the future of gaming capabilities. To set restless minds at ease, and those afraid of the disaster they are manifesting. Read between the lines. Take a look at the Physics processing in the sled demo. Compare that to "Arkham Asylam" which uses last generation PhysX capabilities. Take a look at the frames and IQ during the tessellation demonstrations. Think of improved drivers running on DirectX11. Do you really think they are going to digress so heavily when almost every AAA PC game is labeled "NVIDIA The Way It's Meant To Be Played." After you have looked at these and thought about it. Where honestly do you think Fermi will end up? In the trash? Or carrying the flag for those things to come?"

--

"People have to keep in mind that the compettitor design is like 5 to 6 months older so in most cases it will be obvious for a GPU like GF100 to perfroma equvilant or better than two of thiers, after all the reworks the GF100 boards had.. NVIDIA has Rev.A3 already, as all cards start with Rev.A0 the Rev.A1 then rev.A2 so rev.A3 brings it to the 4th revision, so I guess they have finally gotten Fermi to work they wanted to, reminds me of them days we had at 3dfx..

They continued on it until they got it right and not releasing a half complete product, this is what I have experienced alot with camp red, as my experience goes and that of many others, NVIDIA is alot like how 3dfx was, they always released a product that just works without any hesitations and this is what drives a company forth"

Fotis
03-03-10, 02:16 PM
I dont know who said all those things above but all I read is blablablabla!
Benchmarks says who is king.:afro:

lee63
03-03-10, 02:23 PM
I dont know who said all those things above but all I read is blablablabla!
Benchmarks says who is king.:afro:+1

Ninja Prime
03-03-10, 02:26 PM
Oh, benchmarks?

http://we.pcinlife.com/thread-1366899-1-1.html

Leaked from china, thats the GTX 470. Can't even beat the 5870 in DX11, I thought NV was gonna pwn DX11? I guess they can claim they pwn Unigine tech demo, the last time I played it, it was awesome! :p

Enrico_be
03-03-10, 02:31 PM
Oh, benchmarks?

http://we.pcinlife.com/thread-1366899-1-1.html

Leaked from china, thats the GTX 470. Can't even beat the 5870 in DX11, I thought NV was gonna pwn DX11? I guess they can claim they pwn Unigine tech demo, the last time I played it, it was awesome! :p

How do you know for sure that's a GTX 470 ? When I translate via Google, I only see GTX 380 and GTX360 ? Title of the article = "GTX380, 360 series of graphics test scores "

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=nl&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwe.pcinlife.com%2Fthread-1366899-1-1.html&sl=auto&tl=en

Rumor imo ...

shadow001
03-03-10, 02:59 PM
There are a lot of people out there who use their graphics card for more things than just gaming, the sled demo shows what kind of huge calculations Fermi is capable of :)

But I agree with you Scubes, As a casual gamer myself I 2 wanna see some Crysis or other game benchmarks :)

A nice read btw and something we should all keep in mind ;)

"Interesting enough the same speculations and accusations can be found on nearly every major technology oriented site. Fact is no one truly knows more extending beyond those speculations and accusations. New technology provides new issues to create and resolve, thus everyone should keep in mind NVIDIA is not merely taking old architecture and slapping it on a new model number. They are in fact creating a new graphics processing unit altogether, built on new ways to calculate graphics computation. That is most important to note as they are not just turning up clocks and refreshing old chips. They have constructed what is quite possibly the future of gaming capabilities. To set restless minds at ease, and those afraid of the disaster they are manifesting. Read between the lines. Take a look at the Physics processing in the sled demo. Compare that to "Arkham Asylam" which uses last generation PhysX capabilities. Take a look at the frames and IQ during the tessellation demonstrations. Think of improved drivers running on DirectX11. Do you really think they are going to digress so heavily when almost every AAA PC game is labeled "NVIDIA The Way It's Meant To Be Played." After you have looked at these and thought about it. Where honestly do you think Fermi will end up? In the trash? Or carrying the flag for those things to come?"

--

"People have to keep in mind that the compettitor design is like 5 to 6 months older so in most cases it will be obvious for a GPU like GF100 to perfroma equvilant or better than two of thiers, after all the reworks the GF100 boards had.. NVIDIA has Rev.A3 already, as all cards start with Rev.A0 the Rev.A1 then rev.A2 so rev.A3 brings it to the 4th revision, so I guess they have finally gotten Fermi to work they wanted to, reminds me of them days we had at 3dfx..

They continued on it until they got it right and not releasing a half complete product, this is what I have experienced alot with camp red, as my experience goes and that of many others, NVIDIA is alot like how 3dfx was, they always released a product that just works without any hesitations and this is what drives a company forth"


I'm not arguing that in other environments,Fermi can kick ass and made a lot of changes within the architecture that are aimed towards the future,and because of that,suffered delays,but the bottom line is,what does that matter to the average Home user/hardware enthusiast/gamer,who want's the best possible game performance with the currently available software.


And that's ignoring that hardware evolves so quickly these days anyhow,as it's likely that there will be something 2X as fast as fermi or Cypress available within the next 12 months,as it's built at the 28 nm fab process,so GPU makers can add more features and performance,using even faster GDDR 5 memory,while keeping them at the same price as todays cards cost.


I've said it before and i'll say it again....Holding on to the top performance spot is already pretty damn short when your product isn't delayed,imagine when it is very late to the market,and competition is fierce to say the least,so the window of oportunity to shine as the best/fastest is pretty small as it is.


The good thing about Fermi is that now that the first version is over and done with,enginners can apply the lessons they've learned with it towards a second generation of Fermi,using the 28nm fab process and offering much higher performance in every aspect,and this time,being released on time,as it isn't a new architecture started from scratch anymore.

shadow001
03-03-10, 03:10 PM
Not really. Performance isn't everything. Otherwise I'd still have the 5970.


Funny that,performance has been the main metric for the last 13+ years when comparing anything from video cards to CPU's to motherboard chipsets,and largely determining who is the winner and loser overall,but i guess that only counts when it's your favorite brand doing the winning part right?;):D


When it isn't,all sorts of other excuses come out of the woods,and people get defensive about their favorite brand not having the fastest product on the market for that time period.


It's called competition,and it's because of competition that we have much faster cards,arriving on the market much sooner and costing less money than they would have otherwise.....

The absolute worst thing that could happen is if there really was only 1 GPU maker left on the market,which could then release whatever they want,whenever they want and charge whatever they want money wise...That stiffles innovation and always aiming to release the best products you can,and not doing the consumer any favors in the end.

Ninja Prime
03-03-10, 03:49 PM
How do you know for sure that's a GTX 470 ? When I translate via Google, I only see GTX 380 and GTX360 ? Title of the article = "GTX380, 360 series of graphics test scores "

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=nl&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwe.pcinlife.com%2Fthread-1366899-1-1.html&sl=auto&tl=en

Rumor imo ...

Doubt it.

XMAN52373
03-03-10, 04:36 PM
There are a lot of people out there who use their graphics card for more things than just gaming, the sled demo shows what kind of huge calculations Fermi is capable of :)

But I agree with you Scubes, As a casual gamer myself I 2 wanna see some Crysis or other game benchmarks :)

A nice read btw and something we should all keep in mind ;)

"Interesting enough the same speculations and accusations can be found on nearly every major technology oriented site. Fact is no one truly knows more extending beyond those speculations and accusations. New technology provides new issues to create and resolve, thus everyone should keep in mind NVIDIA is not merely taking old architecture and slapping it on a new model number. They are in fact creating a new graphics processing unit altogether, built on new ways to calculate graphics computation. That is most important to note as they are not just turning up clocks and refreshing old chips. They have constructed what is quite possibly the future of gaming capabilities. To set restless minds at ease, and those afraid of the disaster they are manifesting. Read between the lines. Take a look at the Physics processing in the sled demo. Compare that to "Arkham Asylam" which uses last generation PhysX capabilities. Take a look at the frames and IQ during the tessellation demonstrations. Think of improved drivers running on DirectX11. Do you really think they are going to digress so heavily when almost every AAA PC game is labeled "NVIDIA The Way It's Meant To Be Played." After you have looked at these and thought about it. Where honestly do you think Fermi will end up? In the trash? Or carrying the flag for those things to come?"

--

"People have to keep in mind that the compettitor design is like 5 to 6 months older so in most cases it will be obvious for a GPU like GF100 to perfroma equvilant or better than two of thiers, after all the reworks the GF100 boards had.. NVIDIA has Rev.A3 already, as all cards start with Rev.A0 the Rev.A1 then rev.A2 so rev.A3 brings it to the 4th revision, so I guess they have finally gotten Fermi to work they wanted to, reminds me of them days we had at 3dfx..

They continued on it until they got it right and not releasing a half complete product, this is what I have experienced alot with camp red, as my experience goes and that of many others, NVIDIA is alot like how 3dfx was, they always released a product that just works without any hesitations and this is what drives a company forth"

Only problem with the qoure you qouted is Nvidia starts with A1, NOT A0. So A3 Fermi chips is only the 3rd run, not 4th.

Enrico_be
03-03-10, 04:47 PM
Doubt it.

You could be right offcourse because there's nothing official out there and let's say you're right, then I must admit that the GTX 470 isn't as fast as I thought it would be but all in all, you can't say it's a bad performance overall imo :)

The question is offcourse, is it really the A3 GTX 470 ? What drivers were used ? This is a complete new architecture so I'm positive that what may leak and could be true at that moment, on release day or the days afterwards it could be different because I don't think they have fully optimised their drivers at this point, not at all imo with an architecture so complex.

Iruwen
03-03-10, 05:11 PM
Funny that,performance has been the main metric for the last 13+ years when comparing anything from video cards to CPU's to motherboard chipsets

I sold my GTX 295 partially because I wanted to get rid of it before Fermi was out although it was fast as hell, but mainly because it was way too loud. Which is also true for the HD 5970 (it is even louder).

shadow001
03-03-10, 05:28 PM
I sold my GTX 295 partially because I wanted to get rid of it before Fermi was out although it was fast as hell, but mainly because it was way too loud. Which is also true for the HD 5970 (it is even louder).


I'd agree that is the case when there's 2 HD5970's side by side and running in quad crossfire mode,even more so when they're overclocked or using demanding software....They can be easily heard when working.


Keep in mind though that this is running an a Gigabyte X58 UD5 motherboard,which both PCI-e X16 slots are only seperated by a single PCI slot,so both cards are very close to each other,especially the top card on the first PCI-e slot and the fan intake being just 2~3 millimeters from the backplate on the second card,in the lower PCI-e X16 slot,so it's at least partially pulling in warm air that's being released by the lower graphics card.


So given the high power requirements for the fastest cards on the market,regardless if they're Nvidia or ATI,and if the user is considering a 2 card setup,looking for a motherboard that has at least a 2 slot spacing between the 2 main PCI-e X16 slots isn't a bad idea,as it'll give each card more room to "breathe" basically.


Of all the games i've ran so far with the setup over the past 3+ months,the only one that makes the cards noticably louder even when running at stock speeds,is in fact battlefield bad company 2,which i played the beta,as well as downloaded the full game yesterday,so i'll have to work on an even better airflow setup inside the case.


Another application that makes them squeal is the unigine heaven tech demo,used to show tesselation as we all know,and obviously has a higher GPU workload there as well.