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shadow001
03-22-10, 09:53 PM
They bench with 10.3a. There are other sources that seem to support an average performance plus of ~15% or more, here (http://futuremark.yougamers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=125009) for example. There are some reviewers from the bigger German hardware mags at 3dcenter.org that don't give definite numbers due to the NDA but somehow confirm those news.
What makes people a bit disappointed currently is the high idle consumption, which may be as high as 60-70W (as compared to HD 5870s 27W).



I know quad and the information he's referring to is Nvidia's own data,not benchmark results from independent tech sites that actually reviewed the performance themselves,and there was a previous ATI driver called 10.3,that was released in mid february and it was simply a beta driver,but didn't include many of the optimizations in the 10.3a driver set has,which was released just 5 days ago.


So we need to look at benchmark results from the last week or so.

shadow001
03-22-10, 10:00 PM
50,000..that's a crap load, should have no problem getting a couple on launch day then.


Even if it was twice as many cards,considering that there's at least a few million high end users willing to pay 500$+ for a video card,when viewed world wide,it still isn't much.

Iruwen
03-22-10, 10:11 PM
Like I said, they're using 10.3a since they've run the tests this weekend. Quad states a >25% average lead, so minus the 10.3a improvements, this comes down to something about 15% in real world benches. One should bear in mind that ATI mainly focused on optimizing benchmark (=> review) relevant applications (no pun intended, Nvidia clearly does that too) so these guys do their own benches apart from the "what we'd like to see" guidelines. And people seem to tend to forget that Nvidia keeps on working on their drivers too, it's a completely new architecture... although I don't think there will be a magic "BOOM, 100 FPS+, IN YOUR FACE" driver on release day since the reviewers are already at work. Editorial deadline's coming closer.

shadow001
03-22-10, 10:17 PM
Like I said, they're using 10.3a since they've run the tests this weekend. Quad states a >25% average lead, so minus the 10.3a improvements, this comes down to something about 15% in real world benches. One should bear in mind that ATI mainly focused on optimizing benchmark (=> review) relevant applications (no pun intended, Nvidia clearly does that too) so these guys do their own benches apart from the "what we'd like to see" guidelines. And people seem to tend to forget that Nvidia keeps on working on their drivers too, it's a completely new architecture... although I don't think there will be a magic "BOOM, 100 FPS+, IN YOUR FACE" driver on release day since the reviewers are already at work. Editorial deadline's coming closer.



What i'm asking though is if that 25% lead was with with the 512 SP version of fermi,or the 480 SP one?....You said so yourself that there's about a 5~8% performance drop when going from the original 512 SP version to the 480 SP one right?.


Now add the improvements with the 10.3a driver into that mix and it could be a pretty close race afterall.....We basically don't know if that 25% performance gap was with the 512 shader version,or the 480 shader version of fermi.

Iruwen
03-22-10, 10:20 PM
Even if it was twice as many cards,considering that there's at least a few million high end users willing to pay 500$+ for a video card,when viewed world wide,it still isn't much.

Well, considering how much Fermi will suck according to many people it should be more than enough :D
In the end it won't actually matter if it's good, bad or epic fail. People will buy it because it's new and green and fancy and has shiny stickers on the box. And since AMD will have severe problems with the Northern Islands architecture and 28nm shrink, things will be the same as last year next year. Only faster.

Iruwen
03-22-10, 10:38 PM
What i'm asking though is if that 25% lead was with with the 512 SP version of fermi,or the 480 SP one?....You said so yourself that there's about a 5~8% performance drop when going from he original 512 SP version to the 480 SP one right?.

Now add the improvements with the 10.3a driver into that mix and it could be a pretty close race afterall.....We basically don't know if that 25% performance gap was with the 512 shader version,or the 480 shader version of fermi.

The reviewer's statements were not based on the post I linked, they were completely unrelated. It just supported what I or they said. They have GTX 480s with the final specs (which means 15SMs) and review drivers as well as Catalyst 10.3.a. I won't search for the posts now since the thread comes close to 1000 pages, but one was like "it's definitely more than 5-10% [compared to the 5870], Nvidia got that one right" and he explicitely mentioned the 10.3a drivers.
This shouldn't be a surprise though, Fermi is late, it's huge, it consumes a lot of energy and it will not be cheap, so it has to be faster at least ;) It's not like Fermi is the first GPU Nvidia built. And 15% on average isn't that much.
I don't care about maximum or average FPS anyway, what's really important to me is minimum FSP, and that may be a plus for Fermi as it seems. On the other hand there's the high idle and load consumption if this is true, doesn't matter to me though because my PC doesn't run all the time, I have a notebook for that (Thinkpad ftw!)

shadow001
03-22-10, 10:40 PM
Well, considering how much Fermi will suck according to many people it should be more than enough :D
In the end it won't actually matter if it's good, bad or epic fail. People will buy it because it's new and green and fancy and has shiny stickers on the box. And since AMD will have severe problems with the Northern Islands architecture and 28nm shrink, things will be the same as last year next year. Only faster.



Put it this way,even if there was only 1 million potential buyers for this card worldwide,which would be willing to get it since they're hardcore Nvidia fans and want the fastest card Nvidia makes,which the GTX 480 will obviously be regardless of how it compares to the competition,and there's 100 000 cards available on the first day,that means only 1 in 10 users are going to get their cards initially.


I'm saying this to put it into perspective since when ATI launched their cards,which had a total of 300 000 cards between the HD 5750/5770/5850/5870 lineup last september,everything still sold out within a couple of days,even the cheaper HD 5700 series.


As for 28nm,it's still too early to say if ATI will introduce a new architecture or continue enhancing the current one,as the first 28nm chips could simply be based on the cypress architecture and simply clocked a lot faster,as well as allowing engineers to get to know the new fabrication process with an architecture they know works well,much like it was done with the RV740 chip released last year in april of 2009 at 40nm.


It also remains to be seen if they'll be using global foundries for 28nm,which i think AMD still owns 30% of the company,and they own ATI afterall,or continue using TSMC and their 28nm process.....

Enrico_be
03-23-10, 04:59 AM
The latest news I could find about GTX 480 :)

* Prolimatech MK-13: compatible with VGA cooler for Geforce GTX 480 (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=nl&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pcgameshardware.de%2Faid%2C7069 52%2FProlimatech-MK-13-VGA-Kuehler-mit-Kompatibilitaet-fuer-Geforce-GTX-480-im-Kurztest%2FGrafikkarte%2FTest%2F&sl=auto&tl=en)

http://www.we-wi.be/Images/prolima.png
http://www.we-wi.be/Images/prolima2.png

--

* http://translate.google.be/translate?hl=nl&sl=zh-CN&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fvga.52hardware.com%2Fnews%2F201003% 2F2377230.html&anno=2

NVIDIA English Hill & Knowlton will work together 16 core partners, walked in Chengdu, Shenyang, Wuhan, Jinan, Hefei, Nanjing, Guangzhou, the country's 11 cities, 22 colleges and universities, inviting one million students into the visual world, only I "independence" Zun-PC era of the personality. March 25-26, will start the first stop in Guangzhou, please we look forward to the recent news reports.

http://www.we-wi.be/Images/2010nvidia.png

http://www.nvidia.com/object/wetadigital_avatar.html, just to let you see that Avatar was possible thanks to Nvidia Quadro and Tesla solutions. Amazing movie imo :)

Enrico_be
03-23-10, 05:18 AM
* http://translate.google.be/translate?hl=nl&sl=zh-CN&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fit.shaoxing.com.cn%2Fa%2F11185064.s html

http://www.we-wi.be/Images/terminator.png
http://www.we-wi.be/Images/terminator2.png

Enrico_be
03-23-10, 05:52 AM
* http://gathering.tweakers.net/forum/view_message/33690556

OK, some first hand info, but my source is still under NDA, so not much in-depth details.

GTX470 is ~10% faster than stock HD5870, benched in Crysis.
The noise level under load is similar to GTX285 -- noticeable but not irritating.

I don't know where he got that info from but GTX 470 ~10% faster than HD5870 in Crysis, that's good :)

Revs
03-23-10, 06:40 AM
Geforce GTX 470 has 215W TDP

607MHz clock

Since the official launch of Fermi is on Friday US / late Friday night / Saturday morning in Europe, we are getting the last hidden details on the of slower of two Fermi cards.

Geforce GTX 470 has 448 cores, packs 1280MHz GDDR5 memory with a 320-bit memory interface clocked at 1674MHz has a TDP of 215W.


This is still much higher than Radeon HD 5870 TDP of 188W, or 170W TDP of Radeon HD 5850, but as long as it's faster, end users won't mind the TDP value. However, 215W is not a small value for slower of two cards and it will generate quite some heat, but with the help of Nvidia's new fan, temperature should be within the normal range.

Geforce GTX 470 shaders work at 1215MHz or twice as fast as 607MHz core clock and the performance of this card should be close to Radeon HD 5870 and definitely faster than HD 5850.

http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/18183/65/

JH24
03-23-10, 07:02 AM
@ Revs


215 Watt. That's a lot better than I expected. If that also translates into a better performance difference than it would be a great card.



* http://gathering.tweakers.net/forum/view_message/33690556



I don't know where he got that info from but GTX 470 ~10% faster than HD5870 in Crysis, that's good :)


The 470 GTX better be at least a bit faster than the 5870 after being months late. :p


But seriously, if true, it's not bad. And it seems the 480 GTX will achieve performance inbetween a 5870 and a 5970. I wonder if it will lean toward the former or the latter. (Hopefully the latter. ;) )


Nvidia must make the 470 attractive and fast enough to at least make it a good alternative to the 5870. If performance differences are too small, many people who already have a 5870 might not be interested to switch.


I'm especially interested in minimum framerates of both cards. Also looking forward to Hardocp's review, as they do real-life gameplay through the most demanding level of each game.

Toss3
03-23-10, 07:06 AM
I hope reviewers take into consideration that there are custom 5870s out there that are probably going to be in the same price-group as the GTX 480. :) What I really want to see is factory-overclocked 5870 vs GTX 480.

Revs
03-23-10, 07:10 AM
It's sounding like the GTX4x0 is gonna OC well. Might need watercooling though.

Iruwen
03-23-10, 08:48 AM
I hope reviewers take into consideration that there are custom 5870s out there that are probably going to be in the same price-group as the GTX 480. :) What I really want to see is max overclocked 5870 vs GTX 480.

Sense? Then I'll show you an overclocked GTX 480 vs HD 5870@default.

Toss3
03-23-10, 09:02 AM
Sense? Then I'll show you an overclocked GTX 480 vs HD 5870@default.

Huh? As there are no overclocked GTX 480 available for purchase I see no point in your argument. My point: People can buy a GTX 480 for 499$ or an overclocked 5870 for 499$. See the difference?

Woops seems like I phrased my previous post wrong. Sorry for that - what I meant was factory-overclocked 5870.

Enrico_be
03-23-10, 11:12 AM
Some rumors I found on bbs.expreview.com

* http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=nl&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fbbs.expreview.com%2F&sl=auto&tl=en

http://www.we-wi.be/Images/gtx470.jpg

edit:
!!!
It seems this is where the Fermi architecture will also shine because Min > Max frames imho ! It gives a smoother game experience ! -> I'd rather have max:60, avg :40 min:25 than max:78, avg:40, min:13 because those min drops are very noticeable. Another strong point of Fermi !
http://www.nvidia.com/content/PDF/fermi_white_papers/T.Halfhill_Looking_Beyond_Graphics.pdf

--

* http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=nl&ie=UTF-8&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://bbs.expreview.com/thread-28206-1-1.html&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhiAYLS0c0BmXLiZmj_w6bBhcHU0gg

Forceware 256.xx ... 30% performance increase ?

Is he making a joke or ??? (I can't understand the translation very good)

Enrico_be
03-23-10, 12:52 PM
Leadtek

GTX480

http://www.we-wi.be/Images/leadtek3.jpg
http://www.we-wi.be/Images/leadtek4.jpg

GTX470

http://www.we-wi.be/Images/leadtek1.jpg
http://www.we-wi.be/Images/leadtek2.jpg

pkirby11
03-23-10, 01:33 PM
Meh I was hoping for this thing to flop. You know why? Because if those prices are correct and these leaked benchmarks are correct I'd be highly interested in picking one up. However the likely hood of me actually finding one for sale is probably non-existent. Oh well guess I'm waiting further into the year to make my next upgrade, unless I just get lucky and happen to pick one of these bad boys up. I'm leaning towards a 470, I think it would be a cost effective upgrade to my 4870 I have currently.

Noriega
03-23-10, 01:41 PM
I hope this rumors are true. It would be hella sweet if Fermi will five much better min framerate waht means smoother game.

pkirby11
03-23-10, 01:49 PM
I hope this rumors are true. It would be hella sweet if Fermi will five much better min framerate waht means smoother game.

I agree, that's what got me interested. Cards that can pull 150FPS to me doesn't really matter if the min drops to 5FPS in certain areas. Guess we'll know soon enough, Friday isn't that far away.

Enrico_be
03-23-10, 02:24 PM
Some rumors I found on bbs.expreview.com
* http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=nl&ie=UTF-8&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://bbs.expreview.com/thread-28206-1-1.html&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhiAYLS0c0BmXLiZmj_w6bBhcHU0gg

Is he making a joke or ??? (I can't understand the translation very good)

Hmm, I've seen that he posted some other leaks 2 on that site about the GTX's so it could be very well true that nvidia will launch a new forceware driver that would push almost ~30% (in May according to him). My question is, why ?? Maybe they first want to see what ATI will launch (HD5890 ?) when Fermi is out to counter or ?

shadow001
03-23-10, 02:38 PM
Hmm, I've seen that he posted some other leaks 2 on that site about the GTX's so it could be very well true that nvidia will launch a new forceware driver that would push almost ~30% (in May according to him). My question is, why ?? Maybe they first want to see what ATI will launch (HD5890 ?) when Fermi is out to counter or ?



What i think is that when Fermi really hits high volume production,i don't think they'll be strictly counting on driver updates on the current fermi cards as they stand,in order to counter whatever refresh ATI will likely release in the next 1~2 months,but rather release the full version of Fermi,with 512 shaders,operating at higher clocks and using less power.


I keep hearing something about a B revision of fermi,which those rumors seem to suggest that it's a revision using new masks,meaning the physical layout of the architecture at the chip level is different compared to the current A3 revision with 480 shaders,which addresses the 512 shader core yeilds issue,power issues and might allow higher clocks.


I suspect that a GTX485 card,based on that B revision core,might very well be released soon after ATI releases their refresh cards.

Enrico_be
03-23-10, 02:44 PM
ASUS GTX480 & 470 cards

http://www.we-wi.be/Images/asus480.jpg
http://www.we-wi.be/Images/asus470.jpg


--

What i think is that when Fermi really hits high volume production,i don't think they'll be strictly counting on driver updates on the current fermi cards as they stand,in order to counter whatever refresh ATI will likely release in the next 1~2 months,but rather release the full version of Fermi,with 512 shaders,operating at higher clocks and using less power.


I keep hearing something about a B revision of fermi,which those rumors seem to suggest that it's a revision using new masks,meaning the physical layout of the architecture at the chip level is different compared to the current A3 revision with 480 shaders,which addresses the 512 shader core yeilds issue,power issues and might allow higher clocks.


I suspect that a GTX485 card,based on that B revision core,might very well be released soon after ATI releases their refresh cards.

That's possible :)

Sazar
03-23-10, 03:05 PM
Those heat pipes look like they mean business :D

I would love to see one with a red paint job and black accents :D